/vr/ - Retro Games

>>1629641
To continue, I never really got the same sense of mystery in future 3d Zelda titles. Maybe I did in Twilight Princess, but my memory is foggy on that game.

The constant totem poles in the Fire Temple give this foreboding presence at all times, making the chanting all the more horrifying at times.

Then the Forest Temple has constant statues looking at you in nearly every room.

The Souls series seem to excel in this sort of atmosphere. My experiences in King's Field and in Shadow Tower are very limited, do they attempt in the same sort of atmosphere?

>>1629646
King's Field does pretty much what you're talking about but has a more lighthearted, swashbuckling atmosphere than the Souls games.

Riven is a fun game to explore too. You basically have to tinker with everything and explore a bunch of islands to figure out what all the machines do and how some of the alien language works. Though, there's obviously no action like in Zelda or King's Field.

>>1629641
>many theories regarding the purpose of these ancient places, what the symbols mean, etc.
Overthinking. The dungeons serve no purpose but gameplay. If theyw ere not part of gameplay, they would not have existed or would have been single rooms. The game's story and world do not actually incorporate elaborate dungeons.

Rygar played at the arcade long ago had great atmosphere.

>>1629656
>thinking about the games world counts as overthinking
Now if you were saying that Zelda was Anti-Muslim, or some other garbage of trying to find a completely different message, yes that's overthinking.

The dungeons serve as a part of the world. So it only makes sense to think of what everything means, how life was in the temples, etc. etc.

Each dungeon has an obvious theme, which is shown by the various statues and symbols that are planted all around.

Hell, the Shadow Temple makes an obvious reference the the river Styx, which all furthers ideas.

Strictly shoving things to "It's only about gameplay" is pushing aside all the art, the assests, music and all.

>>1629664
>The dungeons serve as a part of the world.
No. They are an element of game design. Actual mazes rarely if ever are a part of the Zelda story or world.

Just like hearts or weapon upgrades. They're there, they get referenced occasionally, but is the hookshot an actual part of the story? No, it is not. THe Master Sword is, but the hookshot isn't. Similarly, the Hyrule Castle is, but the temples aren't.

>>1629654
From what I played of King's Field, it certainly had a different style than the Souls games while simultaneously giving off a sense of dread. Now, I'm only speaking of KFI, so I don't know if that feeling changes from entry to entry.

I only played the original Myst. The music and art certainly gave that game a very mysterious feeling. I can only assume Riven continues this.

>>1629667
And a part of the game design of the temples, is to give an atmosphere and a sense of belonging into the world, to fuel imagination. That's why a lot of symbols in the dungeons appear in other parts of the world. To give a clear link to the places.

To be apart of the world, you don't need to be referenced in the story. Everything is nevertheless apart of the world. Prushing things off to the side if they aren't apart of the main story, only serves to take away apart of the experieince. The Shadow temple has a room with blood in it, making people think it was a torture chamber or a scarifical room. The game doesn't need to give a clear answer to everything, it only needs to feed you bits and pieces and then let your imagination take it. That's the beauty of atmosphere.

Besides, the temples are referenced to some degree. The most interesting being the Shadow temple paintings.

Again, limiting things to just "game design" limits the game in itself.

>>1629672
>And a part of the game design of the temples
No, it's a part of the aesthetics, not game design. The extent of temples' part in the actual story and world design is passing acknowledgement of their existence at best.

Adding any more weight than that is "overthinking."

>>1629675
And aesthetics, are part of the game design. The design of the mazes of the world, pallets of the world it goes through.

The Zelda games feature temples the inspire thought because of their ruins. Just like in real life, thoughts of "What was this place used for?", etc. etc.

No, it's simply thinking of the world. Games have a world, have architecture, culture, etc, varied designs meant to feed your imagination. To simply brush thoughts of the world that was created as "overthinking" is limiting the experience of the title. Ignoring the overall experience and instead separating into "game" and "story".

The Temples, and their purpose and other thoughts, have little to nothing to do with the story. It's nevertheless interesting to think of various questions. Otherwise, just passing it as "game design" limits the experience.

>>1629668
Riven is leaps and bounds ahead of Myst. It takes place mostly in one large age with developed civilization and culture. It's more about exploration, unlike Myst's tiny puzzle-box ages.

>>1629692
Neat, always wanted to play Riven, this just gives me more motivation to do so.

>>1629686
>And aesthetics, are part of the game design
No.

>>1629724
That's just nonsense. You clearly won't play through two different looking rooms or navigate platforms of different shape in the same way (unless you're playing a poor game).You also do know the aesthetics part of the code, right? Which means they are part of the game's rules. A simple "No" makes no sense no matter how you spin it.

>>1629724
Not the best argument.

>>1629732
What the fuck? Your whole post is nonsense. Aesthetics is part of "the code," so it's part of gameplay? What?

As for my simple no, it's because I've already explained myself in my previous posts. As for your statement that aesthetical choices in art direction are a part of game design, "no" is all I can say. Game design is game design, visual aesthetical choices are visual aesthetical choices. There's nothing to add.

>>1629737
>Aesthetics is part of "the code," so it's part of gameplay?
It's part of the game. Hence part of the game design. It's not hard to grasp. Also, whether you call it choice or design is irrelevant, ther process is the same. Designing things always means you're making choices. You really can't let yourself get caught up in a discussion if you don't care enough to think about your or other people's arguments.

>>1629740
>It's part of the game. Hence part of the game design.
Game is a product, game design is an art form.

Aesthetics is choice, and you seem to confuse them with "visuals" or "graphics", I can't really tell.

Code is a technical aspect, game design is artistic. Code is about as much a part of game design as cartridge hardware's soldering.

You are confusing numerous things with numerous other things, so we can't even converse properly.

>>1629743
>Aesthetics is choice, and you seem to confuse them with "visuals" or "graphics",
How are they not the same thing? How is aesthetics a choice but not the visuals? This is certainly unrelated to any dictionary definition. Game design has a technical aspect and code gets designed as well. You're making arbitrary distinctions and changing definitions to suit your argument.

>>1629737
>As for my simple no, it's because I've already explained myself in my previous posts.
Your explainations were quite poor, just strict "game design" and "story" with no middle ground for simple ideas over the world. Hence why the argument continued.

A short "no" is a poor response if you want to continue an argument. Instead of diving in further and explaining your points, a simple "No." suggests there's no other opinions/responses you can't handle.

>>1629750
>How are they not the same thing?

not him but are you seriously asking this? they are not the same thing.

>>1629754
Yes, I'm seriously curious about how the visuals, or graphics, and aesthetics of a game are two different things?

>>1629743
>aesthetics is a choice, and you seem to confuse them with "visuals" or "graphics"

Aesthetics, visuals, graphics, are all quite blurry while being the same thing. Saying "the graphics are bad" is just the same way as saying "the aesthetics are bad", "the visuals are bad." They all have the same meaning in the context of video games.

>>1629754
That's not much of an argument to simply say "they are not the same thing". But I bet you are better than Dr. No over here.

>>1629750
>How are they not the same thing?
Graphics are what is depicted, aesthetics is how it is depicted. Alternatively, graphics are tehcnical, while aesthetics artistic.

Graphics may be a part of game design in some situations, though not necessarily, but aesthetics can not, unless gameplay is based around aestheticism somehow.

In other words, visual aesthetics and game design combine to make a video game, but visual aesthetics and game design are not parts of each other at all.

Back to the point: story is seperate from all three, unless it's emergent storytelling, which in Ocarina it is not (Ocarina uses cutscenes and other forms of non-interactive storytelling). Something may be a part of gameplay and not a part of the story. Or a part of visual design but neither related to gameplay nor story. Temples in modern Zelda games are elements of game design and visual design. Neither game design nor visual design of the temples bears more than very slight, passing connection tos torytelling or worldbuilding in games like Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, The Wind Waker etc..

>>1629758
Yet while at the sametime, you can say "the graphics are bad" but the "aesthetics are good" the definitions are so blurry. It would be better to say "the graphics are bad, but the artstyle is good" not great, but better.

>>1629758
>Aesthetics, visuals, graphics, are all quite blurry while being the same thing.
For you perhaps. But they are distinct things.
>Saying "the graphics are bad" is just the same way as saying "the aesthetics are bad", "the visuals are bad."
Not true. Graphics can be bad, while aesthetics can be good. For example, the original Legend of Zelda had bad graphics but good aesthetics. Watch Dogs has good graphics but agruably poor aesthetics. "Visuals" is indeed a blurry non-term that normally refers to a combination of both.

>>1629761
>aesthetics is how it is depicted
But yet, Graphics are depicting exactly that. As I said, that's very blurry and the same thing.

If you said artstyle, you would have a better argument.

> Neither game design nor visual design of the temples bears more than very slight, passing connection tos torytelling or worldbuilding in games like Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, The Wind Waker etc..

No one has been arguing that it has more than a slight connection. That's kinda the point, the subtle details that you use to build your imagination with.

>>1629761
>aesthetics is how it is depicted
Wouldn't it be "why" it is depicted the way it si depicted? And the "how" would be a purely technical aspect?

You're talking about aesthetics as completely abstract, separate from a game, yet you can't talk about poor aesthetic choices and poor graphics separately in the context of a game. Saying either will imply the other.

>>1629769
>for you perhaps
So then, I can say, "for you perhaps they are different things." That's not how it works.

Graphics, visuals, and aesthetics are either the same thing or so deeply intertwined with each other that the difference is too blurry to make a factual statement that isn't blinded with opinion.

>Not true. Graphics can be bad, while aesthetics can be good.
Yet they are so deeply twisted together, there seems to be no way to get a factual statement out of this.

>For example, the original Legend of Zelda had bad graphics but good aesthetics.

I don't see how the original Zelda's aesthetics are good if the graphics are bad. It's all limited by the hardware regardless.

>Watch Dogs has good graphics but agruably poor aesthetics.
Yet Watch Dogs has poor graphics that have been getting weaker and weaker in each promotional material. The aesthetics, or graphics, are poor and only showcase a another game with realism.

Artsyle, again, would be a better approach. Aesthetics is simply "visually pleasing", which is what you want with graphics.

>>1629773
>If you said artstyle, you would have a better argument.
Artstyle and aesthetical choices is the same thing. Grpahics is a different thing.

Does the word "aesthetics" confuse you or something?

>>1629775
> yet you can't talk about poor aesthetic choices and poor graphics separately in the context of a game
Why not? Don't confuse - and I will ahve to invent terms and add explanations in order to make them impossible for you to purposefully misconstrue - technical merit (related to programming), practical merit (related to gameplay) and aesthetic merit (related to artistic visual design). These are all aspects of game visuals, but they are different things. Like, to propose an analogy, "round", "iron" and "flat" are aspects of a coin, but are by themselves unrelated, even though in a coin they work together.

Fucking see or what? Fuck.

>>1629795
Aesthetics aren't the same thing as artstyle. Aesthetics, as I said before, are visually pleasing elements.

This is why I kept suggesting you use the word artstyle instead. It's clear to see what you are going for, yet you keep calling it "aesthetics". It's again, a blurry word, especially in the context of video games.

>Does the word "aesthetics" confuse you or something?
You say this, yet the way I approach it, is the correct use of the word. Hence the term "aesthetically pleasing".

Aesthetics, graphics, and visuals, all go hand in hand. Your arguments just further blur the lines.

Wow, this is extremely pedantic.

I think the "no fun allowed" crowd somehow slipped in.

Whether or not the HARDWARE LIMITATIONS of graphics constitute any form of AESTHETICS has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there's hidden meaning or purpose to be found in level design.

OP just ignore the jackass. Go play Shadow Man and Severance: Blade of Darkness, they're both great at evoking that sort of atmosphere.

>>1629641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJezPFYi0UM

Final Fantasy games (especially VII) usually have great atmospheres. I would also like to know of other games with mysterious auras. I may have to get into the Souls games for this.

>>1629981
I find it sad how I had to argue that thinking of things outside the game design and story box, counts as overthinking.

>>1630039
I saw Severance get posted in /v/, calling it the Dark Souls before Dark Souls. Terrible way of putting it, but it nevertheless got my interest.

>>1630060
I'm slowly going through FF7 for the first time. I'm really enjoying the mystery behind it.

>>1630115

Well they're both slow-paced sword-and-sorcery games that play from a third-person perspective and primarily focus on swordplay. Both of them have very few NPCs and sparse storytelling. I can see where you could draw some similarities.

>>1630125
Oh yeah, I'm not saying it didn't have similiarities, it's just a very basic way to say it.

I just read up some about it, made by the studio before they left and went to Mercurysteam. Funny how things work out.

>>1629667
>They are an element of game design. Actual mazes rarely if ever are a part of the Zelda story or world.
The world of Zelda itself is composed of these mazes, and everything in the game acknowledges this fact. They may have been designed with practicality and playabilty in mind first and foremost, true, but they're usually fleshed out enough to constitute their own place in the backstory. Remember that this is the series that properly explained why there are rupees hidden under clumps of grass and made it a part of the plot.

>>1629686
which game is that illustration made for?

>>1630328
Filename says alttp

>>1630060
>especially VII
Oh boy, you just have to say that one didn't you?

To be fair it was certainly better in that regard than half the franchise, though VI, IX and possibly XII beat it out.

Faxanadu

>>1629686
i agree very much with you here. i suppose you could say games have elements that require passivity as well as activity from the player in order to be appreciated and understood. i would call things like music, graphics, textures, and atmosphere passive in that you dont need to do anything and yet there they are. like you said these things feed the imagination of the player who is putting the experience together in his head. and then the active elements involve a little more predictably the players own actions and how they have to move through the games obstacles and challenges. both elements are necessary to the game playing experience

Yeah, all of OOT's dungeons were done in a way that was extremely interesting and atmospheric and the whole thing is just a fascinating piece of work.

>>1631168
Yep, I love the N64 Zeldas and WW for the level of atmsophere and curiosity they bring. The music man.

>>1631168
alttp is the complete opposite.
Almost all the dungeons were uninteresting

>>1629672
No it doesn't, he's right, you're trying too hard, and you're not a good writer.

>>1629686
Oh my god you're so bad with words.

>>1632106
I would surmise that English is not their first language.

>>1632104
What a convincing post.

>you're not a good writer
Duh, I sometimes type too fast and it was 7 in the morning. That being said, that post I think is the least offender of that. Now I'd say you are trying too hard to criticize.

>>1632106
>>1632113
Yeah, my post is really outthere. The point I think you can easily get, it's just my language obviously suffered since it was 7 in the morning.

>>1632104
>if a person tries to enjoy and think about the world it now counts as overthinking

>>1629641
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzMnPQ4w-18

>>1629641
I can't think of anything except for OoT and MM

Ico and Shadow of the Colossus

>>1629641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEDW1SIcB0

>>1629775
Here's what I think is a better explanation
Graphics: The graphics in Wind Waker are mostly flat colors with borders
Aesthetics: Wind Waker's aesthetics make the game look cell-shaded and bright and pleasant. The aesthetics also make the children characters resemble an almost "chibi" style of character design

>>1629641
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BE-rFtBnvjY

>>1635578
Seems like a really cool and laid back game. Can you play it on Windows 7?

>>1637640
Damn nigger, do you really expect me to watch all that shit?

bump

I've always loved OoT dungeons.

>>1630153
Really? In what game did that happen?

bump for more ideas

>>1629641
im pretty sure its because of OOT's
temple's music and ambiance that got
me very interested and into middle-eastern sitarish music and like dark chanting and atmospheric ambient DMT tripish music
its really cool and dark and creepy and cool

also another honorable mention was a zelda theme that i absolutely love its from twilight princess and my god listen to this shit and tell me you dont feel a lil weird and creeped out but in a good way
>dat dark chanting and sitar/trippy horn combo soo fucking weird

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl98PiDeHY4&index=14&list=PLB30A33E41D5FC667

>>1641653
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hosMIlSCuU

>>1641662
also which one of these do you prefer?? the original version with chanting?
or the released version??

>chanting version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZGnJF1R0WU

>non chant released version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZSi6FdBnlQ

imo i think the released version seemed alot more menacing and dark to me idk =/

Dungeon Man in Earthbound is the best dungeon of all time. Hands down.

everyone knows that.

>>1641687
the maw of chaos from thief is, silly

>>1641712
actually OP, thief is a great example of what you feel Zelda does (but doesn't really do much with) but actually does a lot with. Every place in the Thief trilogy has a significant presence in the game world that is recognized and integrated into the grand story of its universe.