/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2034350

2 years.

YOU NEVER USE THE UP BUTTON!

I cannot believe people saying they're stuck in this part isn't a meme. It's ridiculous, even for a kid, you start trying every combination until realize jump doesn't do nothing and only up and down have some effect. Some games have traps that stuck you if you don't think a little, but Sonic 3 isn't one of those games.

>>2034350
>green eyes

>>2034353
No you don't understand, there are only four buttons you ever use in sonic, left right down and jump. Everything in the game is one of these four buttons (ok you can 'look up' but who the fuck does that). Every device you find is activated by jumping on it!

You get to this point, you jump on the thing and it moves. So jumping on it works. And you CAN get past it by jumping on it in the right way, as that was the only way we ever got past it. If you jumped on it and nothing happened, or something popped up or there was a sign with two arrows on it or something, then fine, but you jump on it and it responds and everything else in the game only responds to jumping so YOU JUMP.

It's like... imagine there is a mario enemy that, when jumped on, squishes flat, but seconds later popped back up. You can't progress till it dies, and jumping on it squashes it, so you keep trying to jump on it. To defeat it you actually have to turn around, crouch and repeatedly press 'run' and it will die, but why would you do this? Everything in the game responds to being jumped on!

This is what this thing in sonic is like.

>>2034419
Thank you for this!

In the end, it's just bad game design. If you're only using left, right, jump and spin dash, the game should only require that from you. And let's be real, I love Sonic, but Sonic 3 is plagued with numerous problems, cheap deaths and uninspired chunks of levels.

>>2034350
Honest, it took me from 3 to 5 minutes to figure that the trick wasn't to jump on the damn thing with the right timing. Pressed down for some reason at some point and quickly figured how what that weird shit was all about. No, it's not intuitive.

>>2034419
>Every device you find is activated by jumping on it!

Just the top of my head, the balls on marble garden active by spindashing on them. There are probably more examples but I can't be arsed to look up: if you couldn't figure out without a manual to try every key combination when you got stuck in a 16-bit platform game, then you are just coming up excuses for your own autism when you cry "bad design".

Christ on a stick, you wouldn't even get past the title screen on a late 80s / early 90s PC/Amiga/C64 game.

Sure, It stumped me when I was a kid... for about a minute or two, then I figured it out.
That bit in X-Men however where Charles Xavier tells you to reset... man. Both me and my friend were huge X-Men fans back in the day but not native English speakers, so it wasn't until years later I stumbled upon the solution by chance on the Internet and forced my friend trough one last playtrough for closure.
I mean, reseting the system so far in went against all that we thought was logical, so we never even thought of it.

>There's a run button!?

>>2034419

>only four buttons

You can look up or down holding these buttons and roll using down, man. You can use at least five buttons in the game, up down left right and any of the jump buttons. If jump don't work and spindash command don't work, it's not hard to figure out what do if when you press up it move slightly up, but stops and press down it moves slightly down, but stops soon too. It reminds me my first time playing Super Metroid, actually last year. I though until very end that the walljump was one of the powerups, so when I saw the etecoons doing it I tried first walljumping like Shinobi 3, but no success. I tried every combination until realize how to perform the exact move, probably tooks me 5 or a few more minutes, but it's really certainly is a more complicated move than the meme barrell of death.

>>2034517
>I mean, reseting the system so far in went against all that we thought was logical, so we never even thought of it.

Same here. The game was so damn difficult, that I wouldn't have dared to reset the machine, even if I managed to make the connection.

>>2034548
>You can wall jump!?!

>>2034548
FUCKING THIS

>You can do that?!

>>2034350
Had the timer run out once before I figured it out.

It was bad, bad design. Then again, 3 was when the series jumped the shark with all the silly shounen crap and went downhill to never, ever recover.

>>2034353
I got stuck on it for a decent amount of time simply because jumping on it does make it move and I thought it was me fucking up rather than it needing directional inputs. I eventually worked it out but I definitely timed out the first time I hit the obstacle.

>>2034548
>>2034581
>>2034690
Y cant metroid crawl?

I had a little trouble the first time, but once I figured it out I never even thought of it again. I didn't know it was such a roadblock for so many people until years later.

>Can't move left or right on it
>All the buttons do the same thing: jump
>There's no way the developers would design it so that you need frame-perfect jumps to move the barrel
>Up and down are the only options left
>Up and down work

>>2034581
Too be fair, walljumping in Super Metroid can be finicky. It's especially finicky if you're coming from Mega Man X, a game with super easy walljumping.

>>2034350
I honestly don't understand the issue here. Fucking basic human levels of understanding and comprehension should have solved this "dilemma" in seconds.

>>2034785

BAD GAME DESIGN. >>2034701 >>2034435

>>2034819
I'm sorry but no. This is bad thinking at fault.

>>2034690
Wait, how do you do that? I've never seen this before.

>>2034419
> imagine there is a mario enemy that, when jumped on, squishes flat, but seconds later popped back up.

You mean, like Dry Bones?

You can't progress till it dies, and jumping on it squashes it, so you keep trying to jump on it.

After 3-5 squashes I'd realize that jumping wasn't going to defeat him. I'd have to try something else. Depending on the game, I could try fireballs/power-ups, spin jumping, ground pounding, picking up the squashed state and throwing, throwing something at it... only an idiot keeps jumping again and again after it's made apparent that this only temporarily incapacitates the enemy.

>>2034504
There are lots of things that work with either spindash (spinners in Marble Garden, lifts in Lava Reef) or up/down movement (lifts in Mushroom Hill). The critical difference is that those things didn't give you any false signals of jumping being the key to progress (Marble spinners don't move, Lava Reef lifts don't move and the Mushroom lifts make you eject).

>>2034419
>>2034839
A better Mario analogy would be a single platform that allows you to pass through if you held down for several seconds. Sounds familiar? Nowadays it's very common knowledge, but finding that on your own meant acting like a retard in a random spot. If you had to do that simply in order to clear a mandatory stage, it would have become just as infamous thing as the Carnival Night barrel or the tornado warp in Simon's Quest.

>>2034876
Good thing it was an intentionally well-hidden secret and not necessary to progress.

An even better analogy would be encountering your first ladder or beanstalk in a Mario game. Did you jump? Because up to that point, jumping was the only way to move upward. Did you just keep jumping over and over, getting more and more frustrated?

No. (One hopes) you pressed Up.

>>2034876
>A better Mario analogy would be a single platform that allows you to pass through if you held down for several seconds. Sounds familiar? Nowadays it's very common knowledge, but finding that on your own meant acting like a retard in a random spot. If you had to do that simply in order to clear a mandatory stage, it would have become just as infamous thing as the Carnival Night barrel or the tornado warp in Simon's Quest.
This. Yeah, me and my friends all got stuck on it as kids.

>>2034876
>if this optional secret was actually mandatory, that'd be directly comparable!

But it wasn't. You have no business dispensing analogies, certainly not assessing their validity.

>>2034887
Except the game tells you about the secret. Other than that you're right.

Arrows on the fucking barrel

That point UP and DOWN

Seriously, I cannot understand how anyone can't figure this out in two fucking seconds.

Oh, wait, that's right. Modern gamers.

>"HEY SONIC! There's something about this barrel... see those arrows? Maybe you need to press [^ UP] and [v DOWN] to make it move!!!"
>Press A to continue...

Fucking handholding games and the modern gamers that need them.

>>2034903
I get upset when I see how many games are dumbed down for american and european audiences, but then something like this thread comes along and reminds me that the majority of us are coddled retards who can't figure out what button to press to go UP and blame the designers for using anything other than the same button.

I guess most people feel that the ideal game controller would be a circle with a single button in the center called the "do" button.

>>2034876
>Marble spinners don't move

That was a bigger mystery actually. They give no indication whatsoever that they do anything. As a kid I always just tried charging the spindash to the max and go up the hills that way, I don't even remember if it worked or not because I only played S3 as a rental until many years later.

>>2034903

I played it first time round and had trouble, only because it moved when you jumped on it. Makes it too easy to assume that's what you have to do. I worked it out eventually, but only after a couple of time-limit deaths.

Loved Sanic, so because my bros, and friends would always get to this part we'd just do over the other levels just to play more Sanic. The 5 of us could never get past, 1 time my brother got past without knowing what he did and died on time over.

>>2034903
>...see that check pattern?
>Maybe you need to press [■STOP] to proceed.

>>2034940
...what are you even fucking arguing? Do you have a point? Think about what you've done.

>>2034903
DID YOU KNOW? IF YOU PRESS FORWARD, YOU CAN WALK FORWARD!

>>2034943
Saying a pattern with small triangles (which actually looks more like a rhombus pattern) equals to "arrows" is stupid.

>>2034940
Anon, I think you might actually have brain problems.

>>2034964
>rhombus
Shut the fuck up.

I never even knew this supposedly some kind of hang up for people...

>>2034350
It took me about 3 seconds.

I feel like most of the people who knew what to do immediately owned an SNES. Tons and tons of games on there use the up direction for subtle things, so it was my first instinct to try it.

>>2034839
y-you can pick up squashed dry bones?

>>2035170
You can pick up a squashed p-switch

>>2035170
No, I'm saying that in a situation where just jumping doesn't work, I could try many other things; I wouldn't simply jump over and over, as the post I responded to insists.

>>2034350
The problem is that it is the ONLY object that you ever control that way with no indication of how to do it. No other similar platforms. No arrows. It's only made more confusing by the fact that it bounces when you jump on it, which leads you to believe that's the way you're supposed to do it.

>>2034785
>up looks up
>down crouches/looks down
>oh and by the way you can control this one specific barrel with them in the fourth level of the third game
Right, basic levels of understanding. I can't even think of another platformer where you actually use up and down for anything else, aside from opening doors.

>>2035167
Are you serious? They were useless in Mega Man X and rarely ever used in Donkey Kong Country. The only other things they were used for were opening doors in Mario.

>>2034903
I see diamonds.

>>2035179
>The problem is that it is the ONLY object that you ever control that way with no indication of how to do it.
That's not a problem.
> No arrows.
And yet I bet you're the sort of person who complains about how hand-holdy games are today.
> It's only made more confusing by the fact that it bounces when you jump on it, which leads you to believe that's the way you're supposed to do it.
It's not the game's fault you think so linearly.

You haven't said anything that hasn't been said already. Thanks for making this thread go one more revolution.

>>2035183
Those weren't the only games on the SNES you fucking moron.

>>2035179
Point is it obviously wasn't that hard to figure out because plenty of children did it.

>>2035179
I'm sorry, but no, there's no fucking justification whatsoever for not figuring out how to operate that shit. Seriously, up on the d-pad should have been you're fucking 4th button press at the god damn latest when trying to figure out what to do.

>>2034824
>he skips the demos

You know what also made it confusing? The balloon platforms. You're taught throughout the whole level to control platforms by jumping, and then suddenly the game throws a curveball and expects you to use up and down instead.

That would be like, if the final stretch of Mine Cart Carnage in DKC placed you in a handcar and expected you to use L and R to move it. It comes completely out of left field and throws away everything the game just taught you to do for the sake of a dumb gimmick.

>>2035183
>The only other things they were used for were opening doors in Mario.

Bingo Bango

You open some doors in Mega Man games with them too if I recall correctly.

>>2035191
Yoshi's Island doesn't use them much either. Neither do the Kirby games.

>>2035210
What Mega Man games have you been playing?

>>2035209
The Gens only had three fucking buttons and ALL of them, were jump in a Sonic game.
Just accept that you guys are fucking simple

>>2035221
>The Gens only had three fucking buttons and ALL of them, were jump in a Sonic game.
Right. You interact with the world by jumping, and this thing responds to jumps, so why would you try sitting still and holding a button you never use?

So this thread proves once more that Americans are terrible game designers.

>>2035221
>Just accept that you guys are fucking simple
Maybe the game designers were simple for making it so unintuitive.

And why do you people get so heated about knowing how to do this? Some of you guys act like figuring this out was your entry into Mensa or something.

>>2035224
But... Sonic Team is Japanese

>>2035183
And climbing ladders/stalks/fences etc, and swimming (Frog Suit), and throwing things upward...

but other than that yeah, fucking nothing

>>2035227
We're not the ones creating threads/counterarguing about how unfairly hard this "puzzle" was.

>>2035230
I think the Genesis Sonic games were created by Americans/Japanese.

That being said, the guy you're responding to is either retarded or trolling. Perhaps both.

>>2035227
No. We act like being utterly stumped by what should have been a momentary head-scratcher is laughably retarded.

"Well jumps don't seem to work..."
*randomly mashes buttons in frustration*
"Oh I figured it out. What a stupid puzzle"

>>2035223
I don't know, why would you sit there like a retard pressing jump repeatedly when those clearly aren't doing it? Why wouldn't you try to press another button on the controller? Why would you roll around on the ground crying and shitting all over yourself and screaming that it's unfair instead of using two god damn brain cells?

>>2035241
>when those clearly aren't doing it?
It responds to correctly timed jumps. It's giving you all the feedback of a mechanism you're correctly operating.

>>2035235
>>2035240
So do you guys think this was an intuitive piece of game design? And if so, why? You never had to do this anywhere else in the game, it wasn't explained, and it wasn't in previous Sonic games.

Maybe it wasn't the hardest thing in the world, but that doesn't mean it's not stupid.

>>2034353
Man you are a meme, I was stuck there for days maybe and even trying up down up down (even with my sister being Tails). I can't remember exactly how I fucked up the first times but I remember being stuck. maybe it had a bit to do with playing with a keyboard (I had the s&k collection) but I doubt it

>>2035227
Actually, we don't think being able to figure this out made us geniuses. We think that being able to figure this out made us a standard functioning human. We think that you NOT being able to figure this out within 10 seconds made you subhuman, somewhere below the intellect-level of a chimp.

>>2035250
There are plenty of games where you are faced with things you've never had to do before and have to figure it out. Trial and error was a big part of classic games.

Intuitive? Not necessarily. Stupid/unfair/poorly designed? Nope.

>>2035250
Not a single person is saying it was good design in anyway. It IS a weird, stupid puzzle. But it was an anomaly that, for non-retards, is quickly forgotten about and never worried about again.

>>2034940
Man, I can't stop chuckling like a stupid because of this post.

>>2035263
>There are plenty of games where you are faced with things you've never had to do before and have to figure it out. Trial and error was a big part of classic games.

That doesn't make it good design nor does it make this example good.

>>2035267
>Not a single person is saying it was good design in anyway.

So why bother defending it? Especially if you think it's weird and stupid.

>>2035261
>We think that being able to figure this out made us a standard functioning human.

You can't actually measure this with a video game, though.

>>2035273
>That doesn't make it good design nor does it make this example good.
It's not a gamebreaking design decision, either. Get over it.

>>2035280
>It's not a gamebreaking design decision, either.

Where did I say it was?

>>2035273
There are plenty of other factors that go into determining if someone has basic functionality as a sentient being, yes.

Everyone who complains about the barrel is trolling. The reason why they're all trolls and not legitimately that retarded is because if they were legitimately retarded enough to be stumped by the barrel then they never would have beaten the Marble Garden boss and gotten that far in the first place.

>>2035290
>other factors

I don't think anyone worth their salt is going to use a Sega Genesis game for that, but I look forward to your researched and peer reviewed article on the subject.

>>2035273
You're confusing criticizing idiots who couldn't suss an easy puzzle with defending that puzzle.

The barrel thing was dumb, no question. But if it made such an indelible mark on one's life, then there is no hope for them

>>2035289
If you think it's neither brilliant nor terrible, why are you in this thread? What is it you hope I'll concede to?

>>2035301
>why are you in this thread?
Because I don't think it was well-designed (and it's not) and have expressed that numerous times.

>>2035313
By the same token, I never claimed it was intuitive, yet you put those words in my mouth (>>2035250).

Meanwhile, you did actually say it was "stupid." It may not have been well-designed but it certainly wasn't "stupid."

>>2034350
The whole series never needed you to use Up or Down for anything but the spindash. with Down,

>>2034353

Sure? when you jump the barrel moves down and then up. When i saw this level the first time i tried to use the momentum to jump again. Only to realize it didn't work. IF the very first thing you tried was pressing Up or Down, You are lying

>>2035321
>yet you put those words in my mouth

No, that's called "asking a question". I asked you if you thought it was intuitive, and you answered me. I'm not sure how or why you'd confuse that for "putting words in your mouth".

>>2035331
It was a loaded question. By immediately asserting "no," you insinuated that you anticipated we'd answer yes.

This is easily the most asinine discussion I've ever had on /vr/, and that's saying something. All of this because the programmers decided that pressing up would activate the barrel.

>>2035293
To be fair my boss and I cheated on that by hitting him with Tails over and over.

>>2034821
Yes, from the devs. There is not a single good game that don't give you a hint previowsly.

In every megaman game there is always a dissapearing blocks zone with no heavy penalty for failing at a jump, so you can test how it works.

In megaman X there is a part that in the very first level requires you to climb a wall. It also comes in the manual because is a basic control. I recently played shinobi 3 and it does the same thing (the first time you need to wall jump it says "go" pointing UP) The manual also indicates how to wall jump, and it's not hard to guess anyway.

in sonic 3. The manual never says what the fuck those barrels are. It comes from nowhere with no oportunity to test or any advice previously. Neither anything in the manual about them

http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3_US_Manual

>Don't let tails get stuck
>Robotnick is so evil that if you get too fast and get stuck in the wall , it was robotnick.. press reset.

Well atleast i know the game has no bugs.

>>2035340
>It was a loaded question.
Is /vr/ a closed question survey now? You had every opportunity to explain yourself beyond "No." and I'm pretty sure you did that anyway.

>>2034903
You can't jump over the barrels that move by themselves, and pressing up and down there don't affect them. Up and down is only used in that part. The other barrels move on their own.

>>2034903
Yeah, they may be arrows. Or flashy triangles.

In sonic 2 when you complete a track in the bonus level there is a OK hand. That means you have to go Up?

>>2035348
>"There is not a single good game that don't give you a hint previowsly."
Literally a No True Scotsman fallacy.

>>2035349
I did, notably with "it's not a stupid design choice." Your retort was basically "yes it is." Should've ended it there.

>>2035186
I see a carnival pattern.

And remember, this is not the first barrel you find, this is the first barrel that moves when you jump at it. The rest have a fixed pattern

>>2035237
The dev team was all Japanese. Sega of America didn't make games, they sold and marked them IIRC. Same with Nintendo of America. They're meant to be business branches, not full developers.

>>2035357
>That means you have to go Up?

YOU MUST GO BEYOND THE STARS

WHERE DID SONIC 2 END

IN SPACE

SONIC 2 HAS THE DEEPEST LORE

>>2035298
>But if it made such an indelible mark on one's life

Is anyone here saying that?

>>2035191
It is imagine you play one of the sega games that only use 2 buttons. The first and third are jump, and the second is shoot. Imagine there is a point in the game where you see semi broken wall. You try to shoot but nothing happens. IN the end you had to use down and C. The character puts a dinamite in the ground and the wall explodes. That move can't be used in the rest of the game.

That part is like that. There was nothing like the barrel before in the series. Imagine if you could control the spin platform by using up and down. But you can't , you have to JUMP over it and RUN. Basic sonic moves. Anyone would expect to gain momentum on that barrel by jumping, since everything in the game is either solved by jumping or running. And it was 3 games and 4 levels until this puzzle came out.

Maybe if the barrel didn't move at all when you jump at it, nobody would try jumping on it more. Instead they would want to try other solutions

>>2035375
>"I've never actually played a Sonic game so I'll just make shit up to parrot the stupid arguments made by 12 year olds on gamefaqs"

>>2035380
Do you have a counterpoint to anything he just said?

>>2035375
It is a problem! To prove that, I will MAKE UP A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION.

>>2035375
>There was nothing like the barrel before in the series.

>>2034548
Super Metroid confirmed for unintuitive design.

>>2035384
>To prove that, I will MAKE UP A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SITUATION.

He didn't, though. The situation he explained was pretty much the same thing. Why is it so different?

>>2035386
>Super Metroid confirmed for unintuitive design.
Doesn't Super Metroid have a manual that tells you there's a run button...?

>>2035387
>a game that only uses two buttons

there's a start.

>>2035383
Yes, right here >>2035293
The existence of the Marble Garden boss and these things in this pic showed players there would be times where pressing up and down is actually useful. You are then locked in a room with a barrel where literally nothing except pressing up and down is useful. Anyone with half a brain cell can put two and two together. Were the retards completely stumped by Mushroom Hill pullies too?

>>2035348
And in X, how did you know to climb that first wall? You jumped at it, a natural instinct when you're boxed in down there. You weren't directly told to climb out, you sat down there until you figured it out. The same teaching style Super Metroid used. It's not a good comparison to the barrel by any stretch. Sure, you're boxed in just like in X, but the barrel is far more obscure than the first climb in X because in X the solution presents itself immediately the moment you contact the wall. The barrel requires one of two solutions, both which are unusual.

>>2034940

>>2035390
Are you dense? In order to be analogous, the situations do not have to be 100% the same. He's explaining an example of the game giving you a one-time mechanic that never comes up again and is never explained. That's exactly what happened here with the barrels.

>>2035391
That doesn't exactly counter anything, though. That's not the same situation of standing on a barrel, and none of the other barrels themselves act like that one.

>>2035389
Funnily enough, the Sonic 3 manual acknowledges the Up button that everyone insists isn't used in the game at all aside from this barrel.

>in before "the manual doesn't say 'also Up is used at a barrel in exactly one part of the game'"

>>2035396
It does, actually. Unlike the Down + C command in his imaginary example, Sonic 3 doesn't require a command. If you need an explanation for "press a single button"...

>>2035404
>"the manual doesn't say 'also Up is used at a barrel in exactly one part of the game'"

Well I'm glad you pointed out the flaw in your post before anyone else got to it. Saved us all some time.

>>2035396
>In order to be analogous, the situations do not have to be 100% the same.
The the barrel is analogous with the Marble Garden pullies, the Marble Garden boss and the Mushroom Hill pullies because all of them are on-time mechanics that never come up again outside of their respective zones.

>>2035406
>Sonic 3 doesn't require a command.

What do you consider pressing the dpad

>>2035368
Yes. The game came out in '94. People still making threads and/or artwork about this one situation is saying exactly that

>>2035415
>The game came out in '94. People still making threads and/or artwork about this one situation is saying exactly that

lol wat

You and I have different ideas of making serious marks on lives if you think this had a drastic effect on anyone. We're in a 4chan thread, dude. On a video games board.

>>2035414
I meant to type "combo command," a la the Down + C. There's a difference between pressing an unexplained combination of buttons (of which there are many possible combos) and pressing a single button.

>>2035421
>There's a difference between pressing an unexplained combination of buttons (of which there are many possible combos) and pressing a single button.

That...doesn't matter at all. The point is that it's never explained or used anywhere else in the game.

>>2035425
Yeah, it does actually. One situation has you pressing a SINGLE BUTTON, which CAN be pressed to achieve an effect earlier in the game.

>>2035402
Actually, I seem to remember a few other barrels that acted like that, but only one that was mandatory to get by.

>>2035407
Guys! I opened up a dialogue box in Super Mario World, and I don't know how it to go away! There's nothing in the game that tells me what to do, and the manual doesn't say what button to press! What an unintuitive game design... No, I haven't tried pressing buttons, why would I do that?

>>2035429
That has nothing to do with the fact that it's an unexplained command and mechanic. The number of buttons is irrelevant to the argument.

>>2035419
talking about how traumatic a forgettable puzzle in Sonic 3 was.

>>2035441
>talking about how traumatic a forgettable puzzle in Sonic 3 was.

Is anyone claiming it's traumatic? Like literally?

>>2035363
Sega of America did contribute a lot to Sonic 2. As for Sonic 3, I think their only contribution was music. I heard they were creeped out by how the Japanese side kept overworking themselves.

>>2035440
When you encounter the barrel, one assumes you press a button to cause a reaction.

>>2035448
Right, and jumping causes a reaction that's almost what you want.

>>2035450
But it's not what you want, and repeated trials confirm it's not going to happen. Time to try something else. Or bawl about it.

>>2035452
Right, at this point the game has basically left you to mash buttons randomly until it works. Not a good design.

>>2035459
Yeah, like how it left you to mash buttons randomly in Marble Garden and Mushroom Hill, and probably some other examples I'm forgetting.

>>2035459
Just because the command you assumed would work didn't work doesn't make it a bad design.

>>2035459
Heaven forbid you press up to four other buttons at most. That could take hours to figure out!

>>2035462
Except those examples display an immediate reaction to pressing down. Carnival Night Zone's does not.

>>2035470
Oh no, now you have to press down more than once! The horror!

>>2035475
Except you don't just press down more than once. You have to rhythmically hold up and down AFTER jumping on it. Holding up and down while you're stationary does absolutely nothing. And it requires several cycles before you even realize it makes a difference, despite the fact that jumping on it was already proven to be a solution -- albeit a difficult one-- the moment you start the puzzle.

I will never understand how people just can't accept the fact that it's a horribly designed puzzle. One of the worst in video game history.

Call it baiting but it's starting to get on my nerves because I refuse to believe anyone who thinks it's so simple didn't actually grow up with it.

>>2035459
>randomly
THERE ARE UP AND DOWN ARROWS ON THE FUCKING BARREL YOU BLIND FUCK

>>2035443
Yes. This isn't the first thread even dedicated to this single, specific puzzle.

>>2035439
>press one of any multiple commonly used buttons once
>it goes away

vs.

>press a specific pair of rarely used buttons in an alternating rhythmic fashion for the first and only time in the game
>one of them, likely the first you encounter, can be cleared through rhythmic use of the most commonly pressed button in the game, in a way that is logical within the world of the game and has some grounding in the logic of the real world as well

Poor analogy.

>>2035484
One doesn't have to think it's simple to disagree with the notion that it's unfair or poorly done.

>>2035293

>HURR DURR IM SO HARDCORE I GET PAST A BARREL AND YOU DONT

also the bosses on Sonic are maybe the easiest parts of the game. The barrel was bad designed, thats the reason why so many people got stuck. This is different that the lack of "skills"

>>2035489
>THERE ARE UP AND DOWN ARROWS ON THE FUCKING BARREL YOU BLIND FUCK

lol you really still think that's what they're there for

>>2035484
>I will never understand how people just can't accept the fact that it's a horribly designed puzzle.
NO ONE IS SAYING IT ISN'T!

>>2035484
>I will never understand how people just can't accept the fact that it's a horribly designed puzzle. One of the worst in video game history.
Maybe one of the worst in the Sonic series, but it isn't close to being one of the worst in history. Typical hyperbole from an idiot when confronted with something that requires just basic critical thinking.

>>2035496
There's nothing "hardcore" about it, it just requires cognitive function beyond that of a special needs child.

people got stuck at those barrels?!

>>2035515

>

>>2035515
>critical thinking.
This puzzle requires no critical thinking. Indeed, it is not possible to think critically about it, because you have no information to go on. It's a purely brute-force gate.

>>2035557
Also a pretty easy brute-force gate that's only "hard" if one deliberately ignores everything up to that zone for no reason.

>>2035439
Did you play any game with text boxes? And anyway. Super Mario bros 3 also has text boxes. did you play a game with menus? Is like saying "UH the game didn't tell me I have to press A or B to jump"

>>2035580
Now you know how people complaining about Sonic's barrel sound like.

>>2035569
When it's not Simon quest tier. That puzzle is in a similiar spot to simon quest puzzles. But without any kind of hint (not that simon quest gives you any useful hint, correction, the triangles in the barrels are as useful as Simon quest hints)

>>2035582
That doesn't sound the same at all because Sonic 3 is the only game with that barrel. And only in that level.

>>2035587
The barrel isn't even remotely close to Simon's Quest bullshit. Not even close.

>>2035582
Like it was said before. Sonic games are renown for their simplicity. And everything in these included either jumping or running. The only thing besides the barrel was the lever in mushroom hill zone. But the lever didn't actually move when you jumped at it. The problem with the barrel is that it reacts to sonic jumping at it, And remember, you can't MOVE when you are in the barrel, only jump. Basic thinking says "if the barrel moves down when you jump you have to jump until it goes down since moving don't do anything"

>>2035595
Sonic fans are becoming renown for their simplicity ITT.

This thread is full of elitists. Never change /vr/

>>2035598
I blame the modern "boost to win, what is brain?" crowd. Also responsible for the myth that classic Sonic was all about pure speed and hold right to win.

>>2035589
Not the message, the tone and the intellectual merit (or lack thereof).

>>2035595
I can bet my ass. if that the barrel didn't move when sonic jumped at it, The puzzle would be easily solved. Im sure the devs did that intentionally so the players would spend 6 straight minutes jumping at the barrel like mongoloids and think how funny they would look

>>2035602
And jumping on platforms, not moving them up and down.

You jump on walls or roll trough them to break them, or press switches by jumping, you move platforms by running (the screw platforms in sonic 2) There is not a single part in the entire sonic series until that part that changes the "Jump to this,
press forward here to do x thing"

>>2035601
I think someone's dad worked at Sega or something and programmed this. I've never seen so many people leap out of the woodwork to defend unintuitive game design.

>>2035614
And is not like the whole sonic 3 did things like this. Maybe spindashing on a blue wheel was WOW so complicated, but no, because spindashing would naturally be one of your attempts since is one of the common controls in the game. The only purpose to pressing UP up to that point was looking up. And down was for looking down, or rolling

>>2035614
Look, you kind of have to beat Marble Garden in order to get to Carnival Night unless you're using a level select so you can stop pretending it doesn't exist.

>>2035621
I forgot to say, but you probably know the blue wheel is that one you see in marble garden

>>2035624
Ok, here are the "puzzles" in marble garden

>Red button in the face
It's not the first kind of thing that reacts when you juml in the series. And jumping is a normal action you always do

>Blue wheel.

Spindashing. Is a common move. YOu will eventually try to use spindashing there

>The spinning platform.

Running. Another common option for the game

>Controling tails in single player in the boss fight

That's the closer one. But you don't have many options either. For definition. you will think of SHmups, and try to move it like a plane.

I can't think of other marble garden parts where you need to press up or down except for the boss fight.

Anyone who didn't have the capacity to try other buttons to make that happen lacks something I previously considered necessary to be a mentally healthy human being.

I got it on my first try. NEVER had a problem.

>>2035648
Hey most people tried other buttons. But not instantly. I think it took me like 8 minutes to find out or something like that because some minutes later i died by time limit

>>2035640
>I can't think of other marble garden parts where you need to press up or down except for the boss fight.
See >>2035391
And saying "but all these aren't EXACTLY like the barrel so they don't count!" is irrelevant. Sonic 3 put a bunch of little one-zone-only mechanics in to flavor it up so that players get it through their head that there are some parts where they need to use existing buttons in slightly unorthodox ways that are easy enough to figure out. By Carnival Night, a player who still thinks up and down are only for looking up and down is incredibly dense and not paying attention. This isn't "I'm so smart, look at me!" this is "this is fucking simple to get, what the hell's wrong with you?"

I think people put more thought into trying to argue how "difficult" the barrel is than is needed to actually get past the barrel in the first place.

This thread is /v/ tier, specially the idiots who act like demigods for realizing a puzzle faster than the rest. Please janitor delete this thread.

>>2035665
Why can't we just discuss Sanic?

>>2035665
No one's acting like a demigod for having basic cognitive abilities, we're just rightly pointing out that the idiots who keep whining about the stupid barrel were special needs children.

>>2035681

>we are not acting like people is stupid, we are just calling them stupid, because they are

>>>/v/

Does the barrel occur before or after the pinball plunger things? You need to hold down to use those as well.

As for the whole "you only have four buttons" thing, the barrel reacts to two of those - jump, and down. Once you notice the barrel also moves when you push down on it, it's fairly easy to recognize that pushing up also affects it - then recognizing that it has alternating momentum.

Yeah, I'm not gonna say I figured it out immediately, but after jumping on it a few times I pushed down on it and logic took over.

>>2035691
you hold jump

I had more trouble with Sandopolis act 2 myself.

had the game when I was 9, could not figure out how to get past the barrel. had to use level select cheat to get to icecap zone

>>2035683
There's a difference between acting like people are stupid and acting like I'm a demigod. I'm only doing the former.

>>2035683
"acting like a demigod" means "acting like people are stupid?" I thought it meant "acting like they're intellectually superior by a wide margin." Well, whatever gives you license to attack, right anon?

You now realize that you, too, are arbitrarily attacking others for ultimately silly reasons. You are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I knew what to do in Sonic 3, that was no problem.

What really got to me was Batman Forever. Anyone that has played this game knows about not being able to get past the first level without knowing how to get up to the second floor.

I fiddled around for hours and kept accidentally using the grappling hook but was never able to figure out what button combination triggered it so I could use it effectively.

It wasn't until years had passed that I saw AVGN do a review on it and voiced the same frustration I had all those years ago. I'll always appreciate him for that.

>>2035770
Just re-watched the AVGN video and I can safely say my memory's faulty.

Select activated the grappling hook but you had to aim up to get to the second floor, but to do that you had to press select and up in a weird timed fashion.

>>2035770
I rented that game. My dad and I couldn't figure out what to do for a bit. We eventually figured it out, and it didn't take hours.

Of course, I'm not going to call you a moron over that, because you and I were both kids (and thus trying to have pissing contests about who was the smarter kid is really stupid considering this was like 20 odd years ago), I don't have a tiny penis like some of the other dudes in this thread, and I only got it from dicking around, not critical thinking.

And that isn't even touching on everything else that's wrong with the game. What fuckery. I got that game instead of Maximum Carnage, so in addition to it being bad, you can see why I'm bitter. Maximum Carnage isn't the best SNES game ever, but it's fun and a fuckload more satisfying than that shitpile.

Ahem, sorry for the tangent.

>>2034350
Assumed it was a glitch/bug. Reset. Figured out a few minutes later, though.

hey guys remember that part in Metal Gear Solid where you had to look on the back of the game case to get Meryl's radio frequency to open that one gate?

>tfw I rented it and there was no case

>>2035910
I can hear you screaming from 1998.

>>2035910
/vr/ has addressed recently >>2032056
Meryl's number appears eventually. It's either on a timer, or you get it from enquiring with the Colonel.

>>2034768
>There's no way the developers would design it so that you need frame-perfect jumps to move the barrel
If you've played bad retro games before you should know better than to make that assumption.

I like how this is the only instance where people will defend a "puzzle" that is "solved" by pressing random buttons until something happens. It's like you're playing Zelda and you're like "shit, my key isn't opening the boss door, better flail around like a maniac." Do you guys even understand how many plausible solutions there could be to moving that barrel that have nothing to do with button commands and how low button commands would rank on that list for most people? Like I can't be the only person who thought there might be a switch somewhere that moved the barrel right?

>>2035980
Pressing down in order to go down is "random"?

>>2035980
>Like I can't be the only person who thought there might be a switch somewhere that moved the barrel right?

Probably not, and that's fine. I personally don't blame you for not instantaneously figuring out what to do. But anyone arguing that this was some impossible-to-deduce deathtrap are overstating things.

>>2035186
>>2035362
I see teeth. Teeth and gums.

>>2035884
Is Tails playing Shining Force or some other game?

I am admittedly one of the people who got stuck here. It took me years before I figured it out. But, at the time I got this game, S&K came out a few months after and I started playing that instead. Even after I had beaten that game I would play S3&K with Knuckles mostly because with him you go passed it altogether. Eventually I decided to go back to it and try again. I kept on trying until I got frustrated that I began to push up and down and then I noticed how the barrel moved.

I think I am not the only one who did it this way. Who else figured it out through frustration?

>>2035980
>If you've played bad retro games before you should know better than to make that assumption.
> better flail around like a maniac.

This is pretty much how you learn secret areas and how to complete some games. O that armor guy is blocking your attacks on Zelda 2? Try jabbing him 20 more times to see if you can hit around the shield. Retro games rarely ever go easy on you and sometimes just require you to go full retard on the game to see if something works.

It is a platform game that relies on physics. Jumping makes sense. Jumping SHOULD be what makes it work. It is bad design not because it is impossible to eventually figure out, but because it makes no sense in the context of the game world.

A better analogy would be this: in Mario, you jump on enemies to kill them. One you reach, you jump on him, and nothing happens to him. For this enemy you need to press down. Mario makes no movement when you press down, but the enemy he is on immediately dies.

>>2036245
Looks like it, but I don't recognize the character.

>>2035932
>enquiring

Kek

How fucking stupid do you need to be to not try pressing every button? Tards running rampant ITT.

>>2036261
>One you reach, you jump on him, and nothing happens to him. For this enemy you need to press down. Mario makes no movement when you press down, but the enemy he is on immediately dies.

And then instead of Down you put the move to another button, and then call it Super Mario Bros 2.

>>2035986
In most platformers, yes.

>>2034350
>be 8 at the time
>figure it out in an instant
>go to final boss
>he grab me and smack me so hard that I get damaged as super sonic
I was in shock.

>>2035986
>use crouch to move a platform
Makes perfect sense

>>2034893
I think you're missing the point. Nintendo hides an obtuse secret in an otherwise ordinary spot and later tells you about it. Sega puts an obtuse requirement in an otherwise ordinary level and never tells you how to do it. When it's a non-required secret it's a 'hey, that's neat'. When it's a requirement, it's 'that stupid bullshit'.

Numerous attempts to explain the problem with this section and you focus on one of the better ones here.

>>2036824
I thhink you're missing the point. Pressing the D-pad is not an obtuse requirement.

After reading this thread, I can't tell who's supposed to be dumber, the ones that couldn't clear it and are complaining about it, or the ones who could clear it but can't understand multiple good explanations for why it wasn't the player's fault.

>>2036676
>damaged as super sonic
I'm pretty sure all it does is make you bounce.

>>2036936
Nah, it's actually something that hurts Super Sonic.

Can we stop acting as if all the game requires you to do is press one button? You need to keep pushing up and down, and when you first try to do so there is little no no visible feedback. THAT's the problem with the barrel and that's what makes it confusing. Even if you do what you're supposed to do, it shows no immediate feedback at first. Every single other puzzle mechanism in the game does. This one requires you to do two things (up and down rythmically) which you're never required to do before or afterwards, and to keep on doing that despite the initial lack of visible change. That's why the barrel is confusing for many players.

And yeah, it's pretty bad design.

>>2035224
>sonic
>america

>platinum games
>anything but shit

oh boy
>>>/v/

>>2037530
I don't remember that at all. I seem to remember it only bouncing him off the ground like he was on a spring. Then again that might only be in the Knuckles version in S3&K. I haven't played vanilla S3 in forever.

>>2037736
Kamiya existed before Platinum games. I don't get the point of your post.

And yes, he had a good track record in the /vr/ days, too. Resident Evil 2 is 10/10.

>>2034350
I got this game shortly after it came out. Honestly I didn't know you could control the barrel with up and down until years later. As a child I would just keep jumping on the barrel and struggle with it until I could reach the next platform (I must have accidentally pressed up but I never made the connection).

>>2037723

but this is /vr/ anon. We cant complain about bad game design, if you cant beat a game is always your fault, remember we are the hardcore audience, the elite of the videogame industry :^)

>>2034353
>>2034903
>>2035293
>>2035527
>>2035515
>>2035648
>>2035681

this board sometimes is worst than the snobs of /lit/

>>2035240
I'm so sick of reading posts like this.

You can't randomly mash buttons and get a reaction out of the barrel. You have to hold up and down consecutively to get it to move, where as jumping on it offers an immediate visible reaction.

I won't argue that all other mechanics in the game revolve around jumping. As a matter of fact, there is one other instance in the game that uses this specific mechanic, and that's the weird pulley things in Mushroom Hill. The pulley things, however, also respond immediately to control pad input. Every weird, mundane, or one-use mechanic in S3&K responds immediately to whatever input it requires. The barrel is the ONLY thing in this entire game that operates differently from everything else. That is not intuitive design.

I don't care if you wanna whine about anons who remember getting stuck on the barrel, I can't stop you from doing that. But you cannot justify the barrel as a reasonably designed mechanic. If you play the game as intended, by responding to immediate input or experimenting with the techniques and abilities available to you, you won't figure out that you need to HOLD up and down. You would have to operate outside of what the game is trying to teach you and what it implies thru gameplay, or do things that are not intuitive to the game. That's not a bad thing to do, nor should it be discouraged, but you can't pass that off as good or reasonable design on the part of the developers.

>>2037778

>snob for realizing you should press up and down, as the other buttons in your joystick didn't do nothing

It's not rocket science, son. Don't blame us or the "HORRIBLE GAME DESIGN".

>>2034350
I had the water bubble when i first encountered it, it was only till years later i found out how much people had a problem with it.

When I first got this game, my cousin and I tried for a few hours to figure out what the hell we were supposed to do. At one point while she was playing, I got up to get a box of crackers and by the time I got back she had figured it out.

>>2038361

>She

All makes sense now.

I remember beating Sonic 3 as a kid but I honestly don't remember this puzzle at all

>>2037778
>we are the hardcore audience, the elite of the videogame industry :^)
Developers would all go out of business.

I played the PC version and that barrel is why I was never able to finish Sonic 3 with anyone other thank Knuckles. My rage was horrifying but the solution was so simple.