/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3489431
Wizardry 8

If console RPGs, I think FF5 works, no class is really useless there. Most mainline FF titles can feature quite a lot of debuffing and class utility if instead of grinding you commit to using proper strats.

And there's Final Fantasy Tactics and Tactics Ogre.

>>3489434
>Final Fantasy Tactics
I gave up when I noticed archers weren't the shit I thought it was

Thanks though, I'd actually forgotten FF5, a shame they didn't keep its job system, never seen anything else that's so great and enjoyable.

>>3489437
Proper usage of archers involves Mustadio and time mages.

>>3489437
Check out 4 Heroes of Light and Bravely Default if you have a 3DS, 4HOL is more old-school (As in FF1 NES levels of it) and BD is closer to modern FFs

>>3489434
>no class is really useless there

>>3489460
Talking of which, how is bravely default?

>>3489460

>4 Heroes of Light

Man, I love that game. So comfy.

>>3489503
It's good, is a real challenge on the hardest setting without being bullshit, and has great polish in subtle areas. It's on the long side though, but not as long as some of the Dragon Quest games.

If you hate random encounters in JRPGs, you can greatly reduce or disable them altogether. Helps when backtracking.

>>3489431
The problem with all RPGs is if you grind enough, your numbers becomes so big that the opponents numbers don't matter. The only RPGs that can really be skill and strategy based are the ones with finite encounters.

>>3489514
Or ones that hardcap you based on story progress, or give you a time limit.

>>3489502
The character sprites are rip offs of characters from Final Fantasy V.

>>3489514
>The problem with all RPGs is if you grind enough, your numbers becomes so big that the opponents numbers don't matter.

>>3489528
I don't know this game but I'm assuming it's one where "enough" involves several thousand hours

If you're into mastering the combat tactics you can always try to beat a game you know well with the shitty classes or underleveled characters

I used to get annoyed at unbalanced shit in games but I think sometimes it was intended to be a way of choosing difficulty

>>3489537
Nope, some bosses scale with you and one of them eventually gets a spell called Elixir that grants massive heals

>>3489457
They're still bad attackers and can't shoot through walls.

>>3489537
I didn't mean unbalanced as in bosses being too strong but as in some characters being too weak or useless compared to others, shitty stats system, useless spells and shit like that which usually wrecks any tactical part of the game.

>>3489514
Well at least they are scaling or NG+ in some games but that's not really a problem imo unless you like grinding even when it isn't needed.

>>3489502
What? Mystic Knight is just fine on his own and then you can combo him with Hunter/Ninja for Rapid Fire/Dual Wield/Spellblade cheese. Very solid martial class and arguably better than a straight up Black Mage for elemental damage needs.

I even got my money out of the much maligned Berserker and Dancer. FF5 has pretty good classes across the board, even if some are gonna be above the rest.

>>3489541
Scaling enemies crossed my mind but there are RPGs that are like I described

>>3489551
That was actually what I meant, giving a player shitty options can kinda be like offering a higher difficulty provided the shitty options are just shitty not totally broken and impossible to play with. The best example I can think of is how the beginning of the first pokemon is harder if you pick charmander. I know that's not a perfect example cause you catch up in that game, but if you're looking for a challenge in an RPG trying to complete it with a shit character can be fun. I haven't yet but next time I replay Deus Ex I want to pick all the hilariously shitty augmentations like walk silent instead of speed increase

>it's another Motherfags thinks Mother has a great battle system when it's just a near-clone of the Dragon Quest system

I have no clue why Mother fans always insist the series has an innovative and great battle system. It's really run-of-the mill besides of the rolling hp counter. Mother isn't about the battle system anyway, it's about the world and atmosphere.

>>3489598
Well at least if it's a single character then it's fine but in games where you have multiple characters it's rather annoying to use a cripple. I'm all for increased difficulty but not just randomly unbalanced shit or if it just implies spamming health potions. Charizard is harder to begin with because of rock mobs (or whatever you start fighting, I forgot) and Deus Ex is harder to play if you take some special feats but these can change the way you play and aren't just broken like FF3's warrior which doesn't get any high level stuff or 7th saga utterly handicapped mage (though a patch fixes that one at least).

>>3489623
>implying balance is all about the battle system
I was praising how debuffs work even on bosses (and some other stuffs) in Mother games when they're actually useless in almost any other game I've tried.

>>3489502
You are really stupid. Spellblade silence works on many bosses. Spellblade break instakill many mobs.

>>3489623
Dragon quest has good combat, being a clone of it is more a compliment. Even then as a motherfag I feel the combat is okay at best, M3 has some pretty decent combat with the comboing and a bit more emphasis on buffs and debuffs but I wouldn't say perfect.

>>3489623

If it's a Dragon Quest clone as you say, then there's nothing wrong about it.

>>3489503
Bravely Default is: "Let's take a great job system, an okay battle system, and the worst fucking story in existence and see what we can do!"

Haven't played Bravely Second, but the first was so aggravating that it scared me away from the sequel.

>>3489431
Part of the fun is figuring out what is the most broken stuff in each game
And you can also use underpowered stuff for challenge runs

>>3489949
That's not fun.

SaGa Frontier is what you're looking for. Bosses and random encounters scale with battle rank. Battle rank raises based on how many battles you fight. Status effects like instant death, silence, paralyze, and the like work fairly often and many bosses are weak to at least one.

There comes a point after a LOT of grinding that you're stupid powerful.

One of the few Jrpgs that any random battle has the potential of fucking your shit up.

>>3489431
>I think the closest I ever found to a balanced RPG was the Mother series
So, no one took the bait?

>>3489628
They're not useless in the earlier Dragon Quest games, you goof. Which the Mother games were directly based on. Learn more about what you're talking about before spouting your mouth off.

>>3489518
>hardcap you based on story progress

I hate this bullshit. It feels so goddamn artificial. Not many quicker ways to kill immersion with the game outright telling you "oh you can't level up anymore until the next thing happens".

>>3493220
But then who do you stop someone from just killing rats until they can one shot the final boss?

>>3489431
>I think the closest I ever found to a balanced RPG was the Mother series
Opinion discarded.
Play more games before making such pointless assumptions.
>>3489514
>The problem with all RPGs is if you grind enough, your numbers becomes so big that the opponents numbers don't matter.
Good luck grinding in Wizardry 4, Valkyrie Profile or most SaGa games, I wanna see how far can you go by grinding in Romancing SaGa 2, if you can even get out of the first two generation shifts by grinding like a retard and making everything that moves unbeatable.
>>3493220
>Not many quicker ways to kill immersion with the game outright telling you "oh you can't level up anymore until the next thing happens".
But killing the same mooks over and over for hours and getting stronger is more believable and immersive?
I guess that if I weight 1kg barbells really hard for 20 years I'll get unbelievably natty by that logic.

>>3489431
>Are there any better balanced games ?

There are, but unfortunately not so much in the retro era.

>>3490240
I wasn't comparing to DQ, in fact I didn't even play the earlier ones.

>>3493579
>Play more games before making such pointless assumptions.
Why do you think I'm asking recommendations?

>>3493579
>But killing the same mooks over and over for hours and getting stronger is more believable and immersive?
>I guess that if I weight 1kg barbells really hard for 20 years I'll get unbelievably natty by that logic.
Obviously even if you were killing the same weak shit for twenty years you would still raise at least your skills which are unrelated to the body's improvement. Raising pure body strength by beating mobs is already illogical anyway.

>>3493720
>>3493720
Are you specifically invested in only playing old RPGs? Or open to other suggestions as well?

>>3493730
More like I'm too poor to buy myself modern consoles and my PC can't emulate any better than PS2 games. So yeah you could say that I'm open to any suggestion somehow.

>>3493734
I gotcha, that's cool. I was thinking of recommending Etrian Odyssey, the first few may be emulatable for you. Those are all about balancing a team of different classes to deal with what the dungeon throws at you. Good use of buffs and debuffs is necessary right from the beginning and it's really fun.

Unfortunately magic is a really hard thing to do in a way where it's balanced and interesting so those games are rare.

>>3493579
Honing your skills by defeating opponents should make you stronger, but "grinding" is a horribly flawed concept as is. In most JRPGs, you just swing your sword at whatever moves to gain arbitrary EXP points, which is dumb.

Tabletop games, what RPGs are originally based on, had better systems in place to keep the player's power in check while also making it a believable restriction.

>>3493480
Why should you stop that behavior at all?

>>3493720
>Why do you think I'm asking recommendations?
Short term memory problems much?
>>3489431
>Are there any better balanced games ?
Looks like asking for reccomendations to me.
Though yes, I don't think that you're really asking for something judging by your attitude, I think you actually need to play something more than games for young children before making baseless assumptions, or at least don't pretend to be taken seriously.
>>3493919
>In most JRPGs, you just swing your sword at whatever moves to gain arbitrary EXP points, which is dumb.
Most WRPGs aren't any different, if anything, some of them are even dumber to the point that finding something or bringing an object from a NPC to another gives you EXP, sum it with all the grinding you can get by simply killing mobs over and over like any other RPG and there's a recipe for disaster.
>Tabletop games, what RPGs are originally based on, had better systems in place to keep the player's power in check
I totally agree, that's why people should play games that are mostly based on tabletop rules, but people nowadays can't deal with roll checks and call it artificial difficulty or "too random".
But to be fair, there's games with EXP. system that are still well designed, Metal Max comes to mind, because they favour player loadout and skillsets instead of raw stats, if you want something different and almost completely tabletop based there's also SaGa games, then there's hybrids like Uncharted Waters or even games where the actual roleplay is the bigger part of the games compared to battles, but I'm tired of repeating the same stuff in every thread, people should check the archives more before making threads.

>>3493720
>I wasn't comparing to DQ, in fact I didn't even play the earlier ones.
there are your recommendations. Play the first three.

>>3493996
Because kill rats for 30 in-game years wouldn't make you better at killing a master swordman turned angledemon God abortion?

>>3493919
>In most JRPGs, you just swing your sword at whatever moves to gain arbitrary EXP points, which is dumb.

boy do I have a game for you

>>3494454
Fuck, I'm pretty sure there isn't a leveling system worse than this self mutilating bullshit.

>>3494462
the game is pretty painless as long as you equip everyone with a shield
everyone is just used to ignoring evasion in favour of defense so they fuck themselves over
I played the NES and GBA version and liked it better than I and III, but I can see why people would have a problem with it

>>3489431
That's what happens when you have a small budget, a tight deadline, and no proper design phase.

>>3494462
>use swords to get better with swords
>use magic to get better with magic
>take damage to get better at taking damage

What about this is bad?

>>3489502
Lots of bosses have elemental weaknesses so I wouldn't diss the capacities of Mystic Knights. Hell, even Omega becomes super easy to kill with Rapid Fire + Thunder3 Sword.

Even Bard that is usually the laughing stock of other classes has its use in FF5, when fighting undead and doing sick damage with Requiem.

>>3495565
>get your guys to hit each other in front of monsters to get better at taking hits and killing their own allies

That's the wrong part.

>>3493774
Thanks I'll try, looks fun and I can probably emulate the three DS games.

>>3494027
I guess I should.

>>3496035
>2016
>still hitting yourself in FFII
How about you learn how to play the game before shitposting?
I swear, this place is so fucking pathetic, you morons can't even play an almost three decade old RPG.

Is Evo: Search for Eden or LiveALive any good?#

>>3489502

>>3496529
I loved live a live
is evo the one where you eat animals to evolve? if yes, I kinda got bored with that one

>>3495593
Bard is easily one of the most overpowered classes in FFV. It's just they don't realize that potential of OP until the endgame when you get Hero's Rime.