/vr/ - Retro Games

[Anonymous No.5152667]

>16 bit
>more weapons
>more items
>more labyrinths
>more complex story
So why does it feel so much smaller than the original? Every time I play LttP I can't help but feel like the first 2 games are far more expansive and challenging.

[Anonymous No.5152670]

>>5152667
It really could have done with a second quest.

[Anonymous No.5152678]

probably because you spent time wandering around the overworld lost in LoZ

[Anonymous No.5152693]

Well for starters, the first game didn't have a palace and barely any other people. It felt like you were far away from civilization, chasing Ganon through the wilderness.
The second game starts at the palace, but the map is expansive and there are several towns.
In Link to the Past the palace is a few steps from your house, and the there's just one small village. The map feels tiny by comparison.
Also lttp is the easiest Zelda.

[Anonymous No.5152703]

>>5152667
because you don't go alone, the game starts to hold your hand at this point in the series

[Anonymous No.5152778]

becasue the world is less open and more maze-like

[Anonymous No.5152779]

Because the world in AlttP has more decoration. The lack of any other element except a tree or a rock makes the first zelda looks empty with more space.

[Anonymous No.5152784]

>>5152779

[Anonymous No.5152792]

You have to consider the limitations of using that many colours/bigger sprites etc, when they hadn't discovered good workarounds for the limitations of the console. This happens with most games every generation at the start.
The music, while still iconic, is pretty simplistic in terms of being low bitrate and repition of the midi instruments.

I wouldn't say the overworld size was a particular limitation issue, you have to consider that there's the lightworld and the darkworld, which having used Hyrule Magic back in the day, are definitely seperate maps and not just pallet swaps etc. And all the dungeons, house and underground locations, there's definitely more areas than the previous games.

[Anonymous No.5153006]

>>5152678
well the game is fucking cryptic like Earthbound.

[Anonymous No.5153054]

>>5153006
Zelda Hyrule Fantasy and Earthbound, cryptic? Are you serious? At worst there are a few secrets you won't be told about in-game but what does that have to do with the gameplay in general?

[Anonymous No.5153087]

>>5152779
>Because the world in AlttP has more decoration
Half-true
> The lack of any other element except a tree or a rock makes the first zelda looks empty with more space.
Not true.

The difference is actually that the first LoZ is more consistently dense with content to interact with. Alttp is actually the game with more filler and empty space. But you don't notice the emptiness as much because the aesthetics make it feel more like you're moving through a natural environment.

Another big difference is that LoZ is one contiguous world rather than split into a light world and a mirror-image dark world. In LoZ it takes much longer to travel from the top corner to the bottom corner than it does in alttp because the map is twice as big. The images really emphasize this.

Look at how the middle of the alttp map is dominated by 3 locations: Karariko Village in the west, the Castle in the center, and the Palace area in the east. That's it. 3 things, crammed next to each other with only some tree and river obstacles to try and keep you from noticing. In the LoZ map, looking through the middle of the map you have 6 dungeon locations, a graveyard, mountains, a lake, a forest, and the ocean. That's in addition to all the various combat screens and enemies you face.

Looking at it this way you can see all the empty space in alttp. Kakariko Village is boring once you've been through it once. There's nothing of interest in the Lost Woods once you get the master sword and the mushroom. You spend most of the game walking around the Castle (and the Pyramid). The desert is empty. The marsh is only slightly less empty. Dark World Death Mountain is empty apart from the caves (which are admittedly interesting). Dark World lost woods is essentially part of the dungeon.

And so on. I think if alttp had been 1.5x-2x bigger on the same scale, it wouldn't have felt so cramped and small.

[Anonymous No.5153162]

>>5153087
The way everything is centered around a couple really big structures is the main problem. I played LttP after Link's Awakening, and LttP felt really small in comparison because everything was right next to each other.

[Anonymous No.5153169]

>>5153162
Yeah, the screens in LttP seem cluttered. More walking around buildings, up stairs, across bridges. LoZ is on a grid so you can just walk straight for 10 screens only stopping to dodge a few rocks.

[Anonymous No.5153174]

>>5152667
Because it's more streamlined than the last two games, which is a problem the series had all the way up until BOTW

[Anonymous No.5153187]

>So why does it feel so much smaller than the original?
It doesn't?

[Anonymous No.5153216]

>>5153087
>The difference is actually that the first LoZ is more consistently dense with content to interact with. Alttp is actually the game with more filler and empty space. But you don't notice the emptiness as much because the aesthetics make it feel more like you're moving through a natural environment.
Eeeh, they're about the same. I never felt like I was interacting more with the scenery in one or the other. LttP just has people to talk to, which makes the world feel more alive. LoZ feels dead and barren (which is kind of appropriate, all things considered). I think it's a bit dumb to say talking to NPCs is just """"filler"""", especially considering you can just, you know, not talk to them if you don't want to.

[Anonymous No.5153219]

>>5153216
talking to NPCs isn't filler, filler is stuff like the Desert which has almost nothing in it. Filler is the Pyramid which occupies a ton of space for how little you actually do there. That type of thing.

[Anonymous No.5153249]

>>5153219
Eh, I guess it never really bothered me. I'd still say the world is richer and there's more stuff to actually do in LttP than in Zelda 1.

[Anonymous No.5153272]

how do you change direction on moving platform in turtle rock dungeon?
it doesn't work consistently, it's supposed to be try and error until you depleted all magic using the cape or I'm missing something?

[Anonymous No.5153301]

>>5153187
>It doesn't?
it does, fuck you? question mark?

[Anonymous No.5153319]

>>5153006
>The fucking current state of /vr/

[Anonymous No.5153371]

>>5153301
No?

[Anonymous No.5153376]

I don't really understand this. I could understand if you're new to Zelda that 1 might feel gigantic because you're constantly getting lost and running around in circles. Having grown up with these games and knowing these maps like the back of my hand, when I'm in Zelda 1 I feel like everything in the world is only a few screens away in either direction (with a few exceptions, but I never feel like I have to go too far to get anywhere), by contrast, when I'm in the dark world of LttP if I'm in the southwest desert, I feel like turtle rock is a million miles away. You can warp around in both games, but I'm talking about walking.

It helps that death mountain in LttP is such a massive interconnected maze like complex that it feels like it's its own world unto itself, I used to spend hours warping around trying to get to every last space on the map that I couldn't easily get to, and exploring caves, checking every wall, etc. and I still always felt like there was more to find (even if there wasn't.) I'm not saying which game is better, I think they both rate very highly for slightly different reasons, but I certainly never felt like Zelda 1 felt bigger.

[Anonymous No.5153407]

>>5153376
I agree. There's a reason they put in the Pegasus boots and fast travel.

[Anonymous No.5153416]

>>5152667
>Why is game like X
>Oh, obviously it's because...
You fucking sheep, think for yourself.

[Anonymous No.5153425]

>>5153087
The dark world isn't a mirror image

[Anonymous No.5153468]

>>5153249
>Eh, I guess it never really bothered me
It's not like I sat there complaining about it when I was 12. It's still a great game. But looking back, I think the overworld could have been substantially larger and the game would have been even better.

I don't get that same feeling looking back at LoZ. Basically for Zelda 1 I see a game that did a good job making the most of the resources it had and don't see any obvious fixes that wouldn't involve some kind of fundamental change to the game or technology.

[Anonymous No.5153469]

>>5153425
True, autismo. The point is that it has the same layout.

[Anonymous No.5153542]

>>5153087
>the map is twice as big.
close, but it's the other way around.

loz's overworld has 16x8 screens, with each screen allowing for 16x11 normal-sized objects. lttp's overworld has about 15.7x18 screens, with each screen allowing for 16x14 normal-sized objects.

lttp's overworld has about 2.2 times more screens and allows for about 2.8 times more normal-sized objects than loz's. and that's excluding the dark world.

[Anonymous No.5153569]

>>5153319
>The fucking current state of /vr/
which consist of overweight neckband autistic faggots with Asperger's.

[Anonymous No.5153572]

>>5153319
I know, right? /vr/ can't recognize bait for shit.

[Dillweed No.5153651]

>>5153572
Not since it's been overrun with newfags.

[Anonymous No.5153656]

>>5153651
out with the old, in with the new?

[Anonymous No.5153713]

>>5152784
>>5152779

I did a rough estimate, and think that the overworld in Z1 is about 16 screens wide, and Z3 is 14 ish (counting both worlds).

In Z1 you have access to a big chunk of the map, so you can just wander and get lost. In Z3, you only have access to a few screens at a time, and it only very slowly opens up. It makes the game feel way more linear and restrictive. It feels like you're wearing a straight jacket. So the world feels small and cramped, while Z1 world feels way bigger.

[Anonymous No.5154324]

>>5152670
the dark world is the 2nd quest

[Anonymous No.5154790]

>>5152667
Worst fucking boss in the game, annoying and tedious and repetitive.

[Anonymous No.5154808]

>>5154790
still better than any OoT boss

[Anonymous No.5154812]

>>5154808
yes and no

[Anonymous No.5154852]

>>5154790
He was much more annoying in Link's Awakening.

[Anonymous No.5154883]

>>5154852
took me many times to actually kill him, he killed me a lot and pushed me off the platform so much I literally gave up and took a break.

[Anonymous No.5154935]

>>5154852
Sure, but he's also the first boss, and he's challenging. I beat him when I was 5.

[Anonymous No.5154969]

>>5154790
Any dark world boss is harder than this guy

[Anonymous No.5155001]

>>5153006
>earthbound
>cryptic

[Anonymous No.5155042]

>>5152670
What about Zelda Stone Tablets?

[Anonymous No.5155207]

>>5153272
Hold the direction you want to go when approaching a joined intersection. These are marked by a dot or half dot, as opposed to unjoined intersections, which are just two paths, with one over lapping the other.

I don't understand what you're using the cape for though, just tank the hits from the spinning fire. You did get the tunics, right?

[Anonymous No.5155231]

I found Zelda 4's map pretty enormous as a kid, particularly as one poster mentioned the cave networks in Death Mtn/ Turtle Rock which had an almost natural feel in that there were caves leading nowhere in particular, just a network of cavities in rock. The forest also feels quite big and immersive, but mainly because of the maze-like aspect rather than actual size. I never much liked the thieves in the forests since they were invulnerable even to the Master Sword. The most you could do was bump them a couple feet away and then scramble somewhere their pathing algorithms couldn’t traverse.

I thought it was immensely huge until I discovered ZSNES around 2000 and quickly delved into all the other adventure games I had heard about. I'm still surprised by the size of the worlds in the FF series, Lufia, etc. Zelda 4's Hyrule is comparatively tiny.

[Anonymous No.5155235]

>>5155231
>Zelda 4

[Anonymous No.5155312]

>>5155231
>>5155235
Zelda 4's map really is pretty big for a Game Boy game.

[Anonymous No.5155376]

>>5154324
not by a long shot. Light world is the tutorial.

[Anonymous No.5155381]

>>5155312
You can see by the design, though, how they didn't make the same mistake as alttp by having several large structures dominate the map.

[Anonymous No.5155383]

>>5155312
This is almost a copy/paste or Zelda 3's map.

[Anonymous No.5155542]

>>5155001
well it fucking is.

[Anonymous No.5155679]

>>5155383
almost, but not, in ways that make it feel larger and more content-filled.
I'm saying this as someone who thinks LA is way overrated on /vr/ by a handful of vocal fanboys: the game has a decidedly more efficient map design than ALTTP

[Anonymous No.5155883]

>>5155679
Yeah the castle and temple were realistically large in LttP but they took up a lot of real estate on the already small map

[Anonymous No.5156162]

>>5152667
>Every time I play LttP I can't help but feel like the first 2 games are far more expansive and challenging.

I know what you mean. They are much more challenging, and they also do a better job of giving you reason to explore them.

[Anonymous No.5156169]

>>5153087
>You spend most of the game walking around the Castle (and the Pyramid)

This is what I hate the most about LttP. You are just constantly wandering around the castle moat in order to get anywhere.

[Anonymous No.5156228]

>>5152667
if only you could switch weapons without having to bring up the menu.

[Anonymous No.5156251]

Linearity will do that.

[Anonymous No.5156315]

>>5154790
keep your sword charged and walk right into him
repeat

[Anonymous No.5156332]

>>5156315
I just stay back and only move to attack when he starts to turn in a cicle. I take one hit then move back.

[Anonymous No.5156351]

>>5152667
I've been recently replaying Zelda 1 and ALTTP. ALTTP is a lot bigger and involved. Anyone who thinks differently is a retard. Zelda 1 is simply going from dungeon to dungeon with few side things like giving the map to the old lady. ALTTP has a ton more puzzles and side items that are more complicated than in Zelda 1.

Zelda 2 is a shitty game so I don't count that.

[Anonymous No.5156420]

>>5156351
You're retarded and not paying attention to what we're actually talking about. Obviously alttp is more "involved" and has more stuff in it than Legend of Zelda. We're specifically talking about the design of the map and how big the world itself feels.

[Anonymous No.5156460]

>>5156420
He said it was a lot bigger and involved, but you only focused on the involved. The fact is, this thread reaks of contranian zoomers who want to be validated for thinking something as stupid as the first Zelda feels bigger than A Link to the Past.

Personally, I think this is the just the Link Awakening shitters trying to push the meme that A Link to the Past is a bad Zelda game to it's limit.

[Anonymous No.5156782]

>>5156460
>but you only focused on the involved
That's all he focused on, while entirely ignoring every other point in the thread.
>this thread reaks of contranian zoomers
You reek of illiteracy and immaturity, shitposting because you're too dumb to post about anything but your feelings.

[Anonymous No.5156785]

>>5155207
>you did get the tunics, right?
don't remember getting any tunic, I'll look it up, thanks!

[Anonymous No.5157156]

>>5152667
Because the world is a perfect square. Makes you feel boxed in.

[Anonymous No.5157345]

>>5156351
>Zelda 1 is simply going from dungeon to dungeon

But it's not, because you have to explore things to figure out where to go and what to do in the first place. It's ALttP that has you going from dungeon to dungeon by marking the exact spot you need to travel to for a given task on your map.

[Anonymous No.5157448]

What's funny is skyward sword is like the most dense/efficient use of space in any game not just zelda. It has issues but it is masterful on a whole other plain with its level design. There's no excess

[Anonymous No.5157513]

>>5157448
Not retro

[Anonymous No.5157787]

>>5157448
>What's funny is skyward sword is like the most dense/efficient use of space in any game not just zelda

That's what make's its design horrible. There's no contrast between anything.

[Anonymous No.5157807]

>>5157156
I fucking love this map though

[Anonymous No.5157850]

>>5154852
How? Roc's Feather makes everything simplistic.

[Anonymous No.5158070]

>>5153713
>In Z1 you have access to a big chunk of the map, so you can just wander and get lost. In Z3, you only have access to a few screens at a time, and it only very slowly opens up. It makes the game feel way more linear and restrictive. It feels like you're wearing a straight jacket. So the world feels small and cramped, while Z1 world feels way bigger.
IMO this is the core of truth to the complaint. By every simple measurement, the LttP map is bigger, but the gradual unblocking means it doesn't *feel* bigger.

[Anonymous No.5158574]

>>5158070
>By every simple measurement, the LttP map is bigger
I just did a simple measurement that showed the Z1 map to be bigger at least along one dimension.
Specifically, the measurement was "time it takes to run from the bottom left corner to the bottom right corner of the map at normal speed, moving as quickly as reasonably possible."
Z1 - 1:36
Z3 - 1:04

[Anonymous No.5158926]

>>5152667
never beat that game, played it once, got to the Gabon fight, and just got worn out at having to trek to a fairy well or farm health before fighting him so just dropped it.

still have the save though, I can probably just finish it in 20 mins or so if I get to it, seems like a chore though.

[Anonymous No.5159283]

I hate the ice dungeon

[Dillweed No.5159435]

>>5159283
Vinny

[Anonymous No.5159438]

Alttp has a disgusting palette

[Anonymous No.5159610]

>>5159438
The light world pallette is pretty nice, especially in the woods. The entire dark world is just the usual SNES shit browns.

[Anonymous No.5160010]

>>5159283
I dropped the game right then and there.