[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games

View post   
File: 105 KB, 800x500, Mister-FPGA-Logo-Header-800x500.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6074805 No.6074805 [Reply] [Original]

Will hardware emulation ever be as good as software emulation? Will we be able to run PS1 games at 2x resolution with wobbling polygon correction using authentic hardware? Or could we mod consoles to do that? I'm going to learn soldering soon but I haven't started yet.

>> No.6074817

>>6074805
don't think you can mod a PS1 to be able to magically do z buffering, no. it's not as simple as disabling dithering.
guess we'll have to wait for the ultra 64 to answer that. if they can reliably clone a N64 then the sky is the limit.

>> No.6075147

>>6074805
What a stupid question. Hardware emulation is FAR LESS resource intensive. That is it's biggest advantage. It can reach high levels of accuracy on low end specs. So by that metric it kind of is already better than software emulation which in terms of video games has a big head start on it. Whether buying a dedicated emulation device or using your high-end PC (you might not own) is more appealing to you is another question. Of couse the latter is overkill for anything retro really.

>> No.6075158

>>6074805
>hardware emulation
It is not emulation. To emulate something, in computer terms, it has to have a host system running an emulator program.
When it comes to hardware that behaves in a certain way, it is called "implementation".

FPGA implementation is not emulation, since it is not one system emulating another but a system that is electronically converted into another. The developers of FPGA implementations themselves say that this is not emulation.

>> No.6075162

>>6075158
Fpga retro is more like a die shrink. To make an entire board of shit fit in one package.

>> No.6075182

>>6075162
That is not what a die shrink is, anon. You're thinking of a SoC (System on a chip).

>> No.6075183

>>6075158
(you)

>> No.6077039

>>6075158
>words mean whati say they mean
Of course they do my precious little snowflake

>> No.6077047

>>6077039
except you're using the wrong words. there's no emulator software running within the host in these machines, unlike, say, a pi.
the host is a recreation of the original hardware. which is also why I highly doubt the hyperkin 64 will ever be a thing.

>> No.6077110

>>6075158
lmao the only people who think this are brainlets who think emulator means software to play video games and not mimicking something else. Your fuckin implementation sales pitch ain't fooling me Mister sales rep

>> No.6077512

>>6077047
>words mean do so mean what i say they mean
Of course they do my precious little snowflake

>> No.6077569

>>6077110
Not him but an FPGA is a clone of the original hardware. Even if the FPGA implementation isn't a perfect replica - and there is no reason why it can't be in practice, it's perfect feasible for fourth gen consoles, it's STILL not emulation, it's just not a perfect clone. It's not related to emulation in any sense.

There seems to be this odd idea among some soft-minded individuals that others are mistaking the fact that it's hardware for it not being emulation - that's totally bogus. There could be hardware that is emulating it, such as those shitty retrons, those are hardware that are emulators. This is cloned hardware and anyone saying otherwise doesn't know shit about electronics.

>> No.6077574

>>6077569
some turbo autist is going around bumping threads to argue about semantics because people aren't using the correct terms, ie software and hardware emulation.
just ignore him.

>> No.6077590

Fuck everyone else in this thread

I LOVE my MiSTer setup. Got that bitch hooked up to my PVM, been playing Sega CD Lords of Thunder

mad fun.

>> No.6077616

FPGA is a hardware clone, not emulation.

>> No.6077662

>>6077590
Hi smokemonster, love when you drink tea while playing retro games. Your hair is sexy too.

>> No.6077731

>>6077616
the clone hardware is emulating the original you retarded nigger, clone hardware is literally emulation by definition

>> No.6077761

>>6077110
>Mister sales rep
Mister cores are free and open source, chief

>> No.6077772

>>6077731
Nope. When you emulate a system, you are using the processing power and resources of another system to make it work like the original system; in an FPGA the resources are not at the processing level, they are at the low level: registers, LUTs, DSPs, etc. With these resources you can generate any electronic system you want, as long as there are enough in the FPGA.
>the original
Is the NES an emulator of the Famicom? Its chips are not the ones that the original models had, they even present incompatibilities: often, they were reimplemented in a smaller number of integrated circuits to save costs. But this does not mean that the Snes JR is an emulator of SNES or that the MegaDrive II is an emulator of MegaDrive.

>> No.6077778
File: 295 KB, 1024x768, 1575926453311.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6077778

Don't clones usually imply someone picked some specific parts to mimic the original hardware down to the fine details?

These FPGAs are ICs like anything else, and there's nothing custom about them, apart from the software that instructs them to behave a certain way at lower levels, without a general OS in front of them like most x86 or ARM. Rather than telling the OS how to behave, which then manages the interaction with the hardware, you're just cutting out the middleman, but you still have a software layer that specifies how to execute the code.

>> No.6077793

>>6077569
That's only true if the FPGA is programmed to work internally like the original chips did. If not, it's qualitatively the same as a software emulator. With some work you could port bsnes to a FPGA, but it still wouldn't work anything like a real SNES. Just because a FPGA behaves like a 5A22 doesn't mean it works anything like one on a logic gate level. The fact that it interacts correctly with addon hardware like the SuperFX doesn't change this.

I haven't seen any proof that would make me believe otherwise.

>> No.6077912

>>6077793
>I haven't seen any proof that would make me believe otherwise.
That's cool, the world will proceed without you and your distorted and generally confused version of how it is.

>> No.6077943

>>6077912
Are you saying any of these things come with HDL source?

>> No.6078532

I'll just leave this here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardware_emulation

>> No.6078597 [DELETED] 

1) FPGA implementation is emulation in literally every sense of the word

2) Emulation isn't some kind of awful thing that needs to be consistently shunned

I fucking swear, Anons are getting less and less calamari of thinking for thematic every year

>> No.6078605

1) FPGA implementation is emulation in literally every sense of the word

2) Emulation isn't some kind of awful thing that needs to be consistently shunned

I fucking swear, Anons are getting less and less capable of thinking for themselves every year

>> No.6078626 [DELETED] 

>>6078605
>1) FPGA implementation is emulation in literally every sense of the word

Please FUCK OF AND DIE tripfag you don't know SHIT about anything and especially not FPGAs. I have never seen any good post from you.

>> No.6078632

>>6078605
>1) FPGA implementation is emulation in literally every sense of the word

Please FUCK OFF AND DIE tripfag you don't know SHIT about anything and especially not FPGAs. I have never seen any good post from you.

FPGA implementation has nothing to do with emulation.

>> No.6078648

>>6078626
The code that has been "implemented" in fpga console cores is based on software emulators. Smokemonster himself is quite transparent about this fact. I'm sorry this upsets you so much but perhaps if you lurk on some actual technical forums you will gain a realistic view of the real pros and cons of this hardware and not be forced to loudly deny irrefutable facts. If you get into the habit, you're likely to start doing it when you're not anonymous and look like a real idiot.

>> No.6078714

>>6077772
no those are official revisions of named hardware, yours is a knock off bootleg imitation that performs the same function but is still not official. a Nes is a NES and a famicom is a famicom and their revisions fall under other officially licensed models. The mister emulates the output even if its 1:1 its still emulating the original system, the word emulation literally means imitation which is what the mister is an imitation.

>>6077761
okay where do I download the PCB?

>> No.6078853

>>6078605
b-b-but i literally paid hundreds of dollars just so i could tell people i play on my LCD without emulating. If I accept reality now it would negate my reason for existing. It's irrelevant that hardware emulation has many advantages over original hardware. Life just isn't worth living if some stranger on the internet can call me an emubaby and technically be right. I must therefore reject reality and cry to mommy because someone said I spelled hampster wrong.

>> No.6078879
File: 195 KB, 1300x1027, 70491323-young-boy-with-closed-eyes-covering-ears-with-hands.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6078879

>>6078853

>> No.6079262

>>6074805
>Will hardware emulation ever be as good as software emulation?
People play video games on flash cartridges like the SD2SNES. Those are FPGA based. Can you tell the difference between an original cartridge? No of course not. FPGA consoles just take it to the next level.
>>6077590
Agreed it's great value and only getting better.
>>6077616
It's both. It's a hardware clone that is emulating the original. By definition. the FPGA is emulating the original PCB. But for all intents and purposes if done correctly there's no noticable difference, and in fact can offer superior and enhanced solutions. Take the FPGBA core on the MiSTer with it's fastforward option which makes JRPG's finally playable.
>>6078648
Usually true but not always. Some cores like NeoGeo are based on using the original schematics and translating them to HDL/Verilog
>>6078714
>okay where do I download the PCB?
Github has the source code. If you want to convert it to ASIC you can do it at your own expense. But theoretically anyone can take the source code for Mister NeoGeo or Mister SNES or FPGBA and make a system on a chip. But it's not cheap.

>> No.6079314

>>6079262
Neo Geo is a pretty unsubtle "console". I assume a lot of the arcade cores are that way too.

>> No.6079353

>>6078714
So if it's official hardware it doesn't count as imitation just because it's official?

>> No.6079362
File: 589 KB, 2400x1600, 3e087b6d17ab14e305fea6da79017f23.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6079362

>>6079353
Yep, NES Minis are real NESs but Analogue NTs aren't.

>> No.6079365

Did you guys know that if you use FPGA that it's much worse in emulation.

>> No.6079368

>>6079362
Glad to have that cleared up.

>> No.6080636

>>6079353
That's not a nes it's a nes mini an emulation based console and not in the same product line nice try tho

>> No.6080649

>>6079365
Because you can't upscale or use run ahead to remove lag or play romhacks or rewind or use save states or fast forward or output to HDMI or why?

>> No.6080809

Hey, this could have been a real cool thread, but you nerds had to be baited into another fight about what to call FPGA-based emulation.

What's the barrier right now in terms of system core complexity? The 32X?

>> No.6080920

>>6080809
I've heard they're going to try to get their GBA core out before the Analogue Boy releases but yes basically 32 bit consoles are too big to fit at this point. I'm not sure what the metrics are for where the price will need to be on larger FPGAs before they standardize a MiSTer 2 or MiSTress or whatever

>> No.6080925

>>6080920
MiSTer already has a working GBA core. It's still early in its release cycle but bugs are being fixed at a very fast pace.

>> No.6080932

>>6080925
Now if someone would just produce a handheld case with a decent battery

>> No.6080981

>>6080932
Well it only has to fit the DE-10 Nano which is pretty small. Heck for GBA you don't even need the SDRAM expansion anymore it can use the built in DDR3 memory. Just buy a DE-10 Nano for $130 and you can play TG-16/Supergrafx, Genesis, and GBA right off the bat.

>> No.6081085

>>6080981
>Heck for GBA you don't even need the SDRAM expansion anymore it can use the built in DDR3 memory
Heck, you don't even need the DE-10. You can just emulate on your grandfathers old phone for the same glitchy shit experience you get without SDRAM.

>> No.6081127

>>6081085
>Poorfag who can't afford FPGA tells lies to make himself feel better

>> No.6081412

>>6081127
>ignorant child bullshits about things he doesn't understand and projects

>> No.6081430

>>6075147
>It can reach high levels of accuracy on low end specs.

come back when mist doesn't cost as much as nintendo switch

>> No.6082720

>>6079262
>based on using the original schematics and translating them to HDL/Verilog

Mister Genesis VDP and YM2612 cores are based on software emulators code

Same for Sega CD core

Same gor SNES core

Same for GBA core

Any core that is not a reimplementation of decapped original chips die shots can not claim to be an hardware clone.

At best, people are looking at the chips as black boxes and try to reproduce interface signals behavior and timings to make them interact accurately together but internal behavior is still guess work based on official dev manuals + docs and code written by software emulators authors.

>> No.6082980

>>6082720
I said some cores like NeoGeo, and potentially Jaguar and Atari 7800 since complete schematics are available of those. Can't remember if Amiga is or isn't.
SNES wasn't, but BSNES is so good as an emulator that its pretty much as good as you can get without original schematic or die shots. Genesis and TG-16 aren't hardware perfect but they recreate the experience pretty close. GBA isn't, as it's based on emulator work, but having an FPGA GBA is still pretty neat and one of the better options for playing GBA in console mode.
I expect in time FPGA reimplementations will strive for die shot/schematic accuracy, but for now just getting FPGA cores operational is the priority.
They have a cycle accurate 68000 core out there which has really helped. They're basically lego pieces that can be swapped out for superior ones later on down the line. Got a die-shot of a SNES 1-Chip translated to VHDL? Just swap the hardware and voila. Eventual perfect or near perfect SNES. The Analogue products aren't die-shots either but nobody complains about them for some reason.

>> No.6083124

>>6082980
>complete schematics are available
So where are those original complete schematics of the custom neo geo chips available?

>> No.6083176
File: 199 KB, 780x471, neogeoschematics.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6083176

>>6083124
The NeoGeo core was not created with the original schematics, it was created by viewing die-shots under a microscope. It's as accurate an FPGA core can be (assuming theres any remaining bugs). What I was saying was that schematics do exist for other systems however and will ultimately be used where appropriate.

>> No.6083245

>>6083176
So many qestions
Why did you previously say "Some cores like NeoGeo are based on using the original schematics and translating them to HDL/Verilog"
Why did you post a thumbnail of something else instead of the accurate schematic created from the decap you claim it's based on?
How could there be any remaining bugs or even bugs to begin with when it's completely accurate as you claimed?
How can you not be aware that there are known bugs in the core given you "know" so much about it?
And last but not least
Do you really think you're fooling anyone?

>> No.6084871

>>6083245
>Why did you previously say "Some cores like NeoGeo are based on using the original schematics and translating them to HDL/Verilog"
Ah I mispoke there.
>Why did you post a thumbnail of something else instead of the accurate schematic created from the decap you claim it's based on?
Oh that's the work the guy did to document the neogeo based on extensive study of the decapped chips and boards.
>How could there be any remaining bugs or even bugs to begin with when it's completely accurate as you claimed?
Its as accurate as you can get without the original schematics is what I've said, but its not completely accurate. But it's incredibly close.
>Do you really think you're fooling anyone?
How do I benefit from fooling anyone?

>> No.6085190

>>6084871
And you misspoke again when you said those schematics are based on anything involving a decap. You simply don't even know what you're looking at.
And you misspoke again when you said it's as accurate as you can get "without the original schematics". You only need an accurate way to replicate the logic of the parts. Schematics are merely one of many ways to describe that. Again, you just don't have a clue what the words your spewing mean.

>> No.6085217

>>6074805
>Will hardware emulation ever be as good as software emulation?

I'm gonna say no.
Development is both slower and more costly, meaning it's always going to lag behind software solutions.

The FPGA console market will probably fall flat on its face in 5-10 years when all the neckbeards finally get divorced by their wives and can finally just have a CRT in their living room, or have to get a job because mummy and daddy are too old and have run out of money,

>> No.6085437

>>6077793
>Just because a FPGA behaves like a 5A22 doesn't mean it works anything like one on a logic gate level
Neither does a 5A22 which had multiple revisions and several internal reworkings. The internals of chips are changed all the time because the only thing that matters is how they operate from an external observer's PoV.

>> No.6085442

>>6077778
No, you tard. FPGAs work by internally rewiring the logic elements to create new digital components. There's no 'software' layer.

>> No.6086675

>>6085437
>there were different revisions on a part so broken imitations are just as good
Keep up those mental gymnastics. Your brain clearly needs the workout.

>> No.6088046
File: 492 KB, 767x813, time2die.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
6088046

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBn60DrLWSA

I've heard mumblings about the Genesis core now being superior to the Mega SG in some areas (besides not being able to play real carts but I kinda don't care) and that the Analogue consoles eventually get ghosted on updates every time a new one comes out, can anyone confirm either of these?

>> No.6088595

>>6088046
>I've heard mumblings about the Genesis core now being superior to the Mega SG in some areas (besides not being able to play real carts but I kinda don't care)
The audio is significantly more accurate on MiSTer than on Mega SG. Thanks to MDFourier, the Genesis core audio is now indistinguishable from an original console.
MiSTer runs at the original speed while the MSG is sped up to match the HDMI standard of 60 hz, but this is a very minor difference.
They're equally accurate when it comes to gameplay.
>and that the Analogue consoles eventually get ghosted on updates every time a new one comes out
This one is true. It's a side-effect of only having one guy developing everything.
Any bugs found early will get fixed, but there will usually be a few bugs found later that are never fixed because he's too busy with the next project

>> No.6088614

>>6074805
>I'm going to learn soldering soon


And you're thinking about adding hardware functionality years ahead of the original designs? I think you better learn how to crawl before you run a marathon in Electronic Engineering.

>> No.6088627

>>6088046
MiSTer has some special features that Analogue doesn't (cheats, video filters, controller remapping, turbo, sprite limit increase) but Smoke's video covers that.
Analogue has a few unique features too ("smart" dither blending that kinda works, finer control over audio and video, real cart support) but it's not really a contest.
Analogue is for people who prefer simplicity and/or need to use original carts.
MiSTer's Genesis core performs better at this point, plus you get the excellent NES and SNES cores that are better than Analogue's stuff too. NeoGeo is also excellent on MiSTer, as are almost all of the Arcade cores and several computer cores. TG-16 and Game Boy are also very good, but not quite on the same level of accuracy yet. They have a few minor bugs left.