Why is this game so divisive?

[Anonymous No.7425282]

Is it just Sonicfags being buttmad that NiGHTS cucked them out of a proper entry that gen?

[Anonymous No.7425293]

Mostly because it's really just not all that fun

[Anonymous No.7425312]

I love NiGHTS, but it's probably one of the least accessible games ever made. You pretty much have to have someone explain everything about the game to you beforehand (or read the manual) or you'll never have any idea what anything does or how to make progress.

If you "get it", the game certainly becomes a masterpiece, but if you don't, it's just comes off as some queer time attack game about clowns.

[Anonymous No.7425339]

>>7425282
People actually enjoy this shitty game? I thought it was just a meme.

[Anonymous No.7425349]

>>7425312
I get it, but for a score attack game it does everything in its power to make chaining as cumbersome, fidgety, and difficult as possible.

[Anonymous No.7425390]

I just wish the game was more zoomed out and the stages were easier to read.
You pretty much need to memorize the stages to play the game well, you can't really plan ahead when you can barely see what's in front of you and the perspectives changes often come out of nowhere.

[Anonymous No.7425427]

>>7425390

[Anonymous No.7425796]

NiGHTS is F U N

>>7425293
>>7425339
Filtered AF

[Anonymous No.7426072]

I guess it's because the original NiGHTS was much more arcade-y and score attack focused then something like Sonic from the same dev. Some just couldn't gel with that.

[Anonymous No.7426123]

isn’t it just like Superman 64, flying through rings and shit? I remember this game having tons of advertisements in magazines in the 90s

[Anonymous No.7426126]

>>7426123
You fly through rings except it’s actually good

[Anonymous No.7426212]

>>7425282
Its just 1 shitposter

[Anonymous No.7426253]

https://youtu.be/bJL0oSw8ZMs?t=791

Link and pic are from the first level and it controls horribly.
>>7426126
>except it’s actually good
Delusional.

[Anonymous No.7426256]

>>7425282
It's a few N64 fanboys shitposting

[Anonymous No.7426292]

>>7425282
It's supposed to be a "score attack" game, the only problem is playing for score is boring as fuck. Playing the game normally is boring too.

[Anonymous No.7426398]

>>7425282
I think NiGHTs is one of those games that in the west at least got largely ignored at the time but eventually became one of those "hidden gem" games that gets discussed and enjoyed in a lowkey kind of way. Eventually, those games end up getting hyped by tryhards as being like THE BEST GAME of the generation and you were TOO FUCKING SOULLESS to have realised that at the time.

NiGHTs is supremely comfy and really feels dream like, a perfect expression of the artist's intent and the gameplay is very fluid feeling. Does that make it the best game of the 5th generation? No. But if you're a try hard poser, then you'll claim it is to seem special.

[Anonymous No.7426408]

>>7425427
>posting characters from good games in a meme thread

[Anonymous No.7426730]

>>7425312
Even if you read the manual it's not exactly super helpful
BRING 20 CHIPS TO THE IDEYA CAPTURE TO COLLECT AN IDEYA. TAKE THE IDEYA BACK TO THE IDEYA PALACE.
And even if you know what this nonsense means, the game itself is still insanely unintuitive, especially the level design and camera. The second game vastly improves those aspects to provide a more natural game experience.

Also the game is probably the ONLY example I can think of in my mind of a game that manages to be incredibly simplistic yet somehow is confusing and unintuitive. It's shocking to think seasoned game designers making a 2D game with literally Atari 2600 tier controls (one button for boost and stick for movement) couldn't fucking make the game more natural to play and at least design a good first level that teaches players what to do.

[Anonymous No.7426763]

>>7426408
He described mega man

[Anonymous No.7426770]

>>7426763
>implying
even Mega Man 1 had some intuitive design that showed you upcoming obstacles before dealing with them, the dropping platforms in GutsMan stage come to mind.
The game also isn't insanely fucking confusing and unclear in its goals. Anybody can understand how to play it from just fucking playing it.

Also aside from the SNES era mainline series (7, 8, &Bass) the camera is always zoomed out enough for you to have a decent view of what's ahead, only those games had huge sprites and cramped camera space.

[Anonymous No.7426970]

>>7426253
>controls horribly
fake news, I got all A ranks on the Steam version.

[Anonymous No.7427006]

>>7426730
Yeah, I take back what I said about the manual. You really need someone to sit you down and explain to you what you need to do throughout the first level to get an understanding of how to play. Even then, the bosses are also quite difficult to understand if you don't know all of their very specific strategies going in.

>The second game vastly improves those aspects to provide a more natural game experience.
Is this true? I never played JoD, but I heard most people didn't like it?

[Anonymous No.7427019]

>>7426730
>>7427006
>The game needs to provide me with a walkthrough for it to be fun
Zoomers everyone.

[Anonymous No.7427049]

>>7427019
Anon, I'm on your side, but NiGHTS has some very serious problems with instruction that can't be waved away by experience alone. This is a game where within quite literally your first second of play, enemies ambush you and steal stuff -- how is a first-time player supposed to know what that means?

The developers must have caught on to this, because after every loss you get a screen with (still somewhat vague) gameplay tips spelled out for you in plain black text on a white background.

NiGHTS is a really excellent game, but, like a lot of SEGA's games from around the time, there's a very, very steep learning curve.

[Anonymous No.7427062]

>>7426398
This is about correct. Nights is a hidden gem that has a lot of comfy to it. But the way everyone hypes these games as the second coming of christ is what bothers me the most. I think what made this game amazing was the fact it was trying to do something interesting yet gimmicky and succeeded where others had failed before.

[Anonymous No.7427065]

>>7427049
>Not learning through trial and error
>Not trying to experiment with a game that is different from what you know.
At some point you have forgotten what being a gamer is.

[Anonymous No.7427138]

I just started playing on Saturn. It’s fun, and I’m enjoying the atmosphere. I’m getting shit grades though, best I ever got was a C. I’m curious to get better though, any advise?

[Anonymous No.7427143]

>>7427138
literally just memorize the stages, that's the entire game

[Anonymous No.7427191]

>>7427138
First, focus on collecting and depositing 20 blue chips ASAP. After that, your score is doubled until you return to the Ideya Palace, so just focus on racking up as many points as you can with the time you have left. You'll lose them all if you run out of time, though, so don't stray too far from the palace.

Other things:
You can get a bit of extra bonus time on your first track if you collect most/all of the blue chips as Claris/Elliot and deposit them immediately as NiGHTs. Defeat bosses ASAP. Hang around on the title screen to see Claris and Elliot's opening cutscenes.

[Anonymous No.7427314]

>>7425282
The art direction of this game is so hideous that it alone is enough to keep me from ever playing it. Who the fuck is it supposed to appeal to?

[Anonymous No.7427375]

>>7427314
People who like Cirque du Soleil and European clowns/jesters.

[Anonymous No.7427382]

it's a weird game and it really doesn't do a good job at explaining how to play it correctly. I enjoy it but I could never see myself sinking hours and hours into it. it's more of a thing you pick up for like 10-15 minutes

[Anonymous No.7427421]

>>7425282
Retards think Naka's first failure was Balan Wonderworld, when it was actually all the way back during the Saturn with NiGHTs:

>Be Sega
>Be making a new console to compete in the burgeoning 3D era
>See Nintendo release a mascot leading title in Mario 64 using their mascot in the first true 3D platformer game
>Sony follows suit with Crash
>Instead of just doing the obvious and make a mascot leading charge with a 3D Sonic at the Saturn's launch they....
>....stop making Sonic games in order to self indulge in shitty indie projects like Burning Rangers and of course Nights into Shit
>Meanwhile a murrican partner is busy slaving away at a 3D Sonic since your retarded prideful ass doesnt want to
>The devs are so overworked and under intense pressure one of them is hospitalized and almost dies
>They need help so, thinking in the good faith that youre all in this together as a company, borrows the 3D engine used to make your shitty flamboyant jester game
>Naka, being the prideful arrogant cunt, finds this out and feels his ego as a programmer has been besmirched, and throws a child tantrum at Sega upper management
>Engine gets taken away, 3D Sonic game gets cancelled right before holiday season where crucial Saturn sales would have been made
>Rest of the platform's short-lived life only has a shitty Sonic racer and a shitty Sonic compilation
>Sega magazines at the time even poked fun at Sega for refusing to make a game for the mascot that put them on the map to begin with
>All in the name of propping up instead a shitty gay jester game for faggots and queers that want to fuck twinks and get AIDs in a pointless confusing '''''arcade score attack'''''' game mindlessly flying around on a 2D plane doing loop de loops to make circles around orbs

And then Naka thought his gay jester game could ACTUALLY compete with Mario 64. Magazines again at the time were incredulous at the sheer audacity on display, its no wonder then that Nights has always been viewed as a joke.

[Anonymous No.7427429]

>>7427421
HEY!

...Balan Wonderworld isn't out, yet.

[Anonymous No.7427443]

>>7427421
Naka is one of the biggest hacks in gaming. I blame the "developers are rockstars" mindset in the 90's even if it was mostly a western thing.

[Anonymous No.7427461]

>>7427421
Has Naka ever had a notable success that wasn't Sonic? Even Prope went under after about 15 seconds.

[Anonymous No.7427472]

>>7425282
>Is it just Sonicfags being buttmad that NiGHTS cucked them out of a proper entry that gen?

>>7426072
>I guess it's because the original NiGHTS was much more arcade-y and score attack focused then something like Sonic from the same dev. Some just couldn't gel with that.

This and this. People wanted and expected a purely hands-on mascot adventure with challenge, what they got was a faux side-on racing game you can 'complete' in a couple of hours 'effortlessly' by just holding right. If high scores aren't your thing, NiGHTS is a dud. Also, it was released after Super Mario 64 and Resident Evil had already made huge waves for N64 and PSX respectively. It just looked like a simple arcade game in comparison.

[Anonymous No.7427474]

>>7427461
Willy Snatcher and the Giant Shit.

[Anonymous No.7427479]

>>7427461

He programmed the Phantasy Star scrolling dungeons which were hot shit at the time. But yeah, he's overrated.

[Anonymous No.7427480]

>>7425293
This.

[Anonymous No.7427504]

>>7427474
Billy Hatcher bombed, darling.

[Anonymous No.7427507]

>>7427504
Some people have no sense of humour

[Anonymous No.7427589]

did i imagine a dreamcast version?

[Anonymous No.7427610]

>>7427589
Yep.

[Anonymous No.7427705]

>>7427421
Well at least his diablo clone was pretty good and still enjoys a active community online.

[Anonymous No.7428020]

>>7427589
You may be thinking of the NiGHTS minigame in Sonic Adventure.

[Anonymous No.7428323]

>>7427019
>a walkthrough
I mean an optional direct tutorial would be maybe nice. But how about a Super Mario Bros or Mega Man X style first level where all the mechanics are naturally taught to you in a straightforward manner with literally no fucking messages at all?

[Anonymous No.7428332]

>>7427006
Journey of Dreams -plays- a HELL of a lot better than Into Dreams. However it looks and sounds like complete dogshit. The soundtrack is unimaginably terrible compared to the first game's, and the motion controls are really damn terrible.

If you play with a Classic controller it's great, the game shifts the camera a bit so instead of it being perfectly parallel with Nights and giving you effectively zero view of where you're going it instead is angled slightly behind Nights isometrically so you have a large view of the upcoming level. Level design itself is also a lot more fluid and natural.

[Anonymous No.7428336]

>>7425282
The game really could have benefited from another stage for each character.
Other than that, it's fine.
And it's not just a score attack game; there's the a-life system, which is a kind of proto-Chao system, where you can breed Nightopians or make Nightopian/Nighmarian hybrids.

[Anonymous No.7428401]

>>7427461
Like this anon said>>7427479, those 3D Phantasy Star dungeons are some hot shit. But in terms of directorial output the only great game that he ever conceived was PSO.

[Anonymous No.7428563]

>>7428401
PSO was shit. Naka's only good game is Chu Chu Rocket.

[Anonymous No.7428568]

>>7428401

He was a producer for PSO, not the director.

The only games he's ever directed are Chu Chu Rocket and Balan Wonderworld. He's a great programmer though, it goes without saying.

[Anonymous No.7428573]

>>7426256
>Nintendo boogeyman
A lot of Nintys love NiGHTS and Sonic.

[Anonymous No.7428579]

>>7428332
Agreed, Journey of Dreams is pretty great when playing with a Classic Controller. Nice substitute for a Sonic Adventure 3, since the best Wii got was Secret Rings, which was alright at best.

[Anonymous No.7428591]

>>7428568
>He's a great programmer though, it goes without saying.
He said posting the MD port of Ghouls 'n Ghosts, the only version with hitboxes that are way too big.

[Anonymous No.7428596]

>>7428573
All it takes is a few

[Anonymous No.7428732]

>>7428591

It's just an extra layer of challenge, and it's still entirely fair. No complaints from me since it's the easiest game in the series even on the highest difficulty setting.

[Anonymous No.7429000]

>>7425282
Why would they? It's basically flying Sonic and it su cks

[Anonymous No.7429271]

>>7425282
>Sonicfags being buttmad
As a Sonic fan I wish Sega didn't shit the bed and survived the 90s. I'm disappointed in their execution and planning, not Nights itself.

>>7425293
>>7425390
Unfortunately, these. You had to pretend this game was good while other kids had Crash/Spyro/Mario 64

[Anonymous No.7429282]

>>7429271
Tbf, I rather go back and replay Nights over those other boring 3d scotformers you listed.

[Anonymous No.7429285]

>>7429282
Me too, because I've already pumped hundreds (maybe thousands?) of hours into those series. I've played nights for 3 hours tops. It's not fun unfortunatl

[Anonymous No.7429307]

>>7425282
>>7425282
>>7425282

I don't care how many times someone explains how the fuck the game is supposed to work, how you're supposed to progress through the levels, or what the tricks and style points are for.

Its needlessly convoluted and unclearly conveyed to regular players- the people that claim otherwise literally had to look up how things worked or played it when it came out.

I don't like the scoring system, I don't like that its pseudo 3D, but takes place on a 2D plain that cannot be altered. I don't like how mushy and ugly everything in the game looks, like it wasn't even meant for the hardware. I don't understand the continued "respect" and adulation this game gets but then again Saturn fans are nuts- so that explains that.

[Anonymous No.7429317]

>>7429285
Nah, it's because NiGHTS has that classic arcade style of design that rewards good play that gives the game infinite replay value. Same cannot be said for bing bing yahoo 64 or trash bandicunt which, when you beat them, that's pretty much it, you've done and seen all the games have to offer you and it gets stale.

NiGHTS, for all the flak it got for being "too short" or whatever, has aged exceptionally well compared to other games from its generation.

[Anonymous No.7429331]

>>7425293
shut the fuck up

[Anonymous No.7429357]

>>7426398
So just like Sonic CD?

[Anonymous No.7429621]

>>7429317
Mario64 has replay value as a SPEEDRUN game.
How could you not know this? It's one of the most popular SPEEDRUN games currently.
Have you been living under a rock?

[Anonymous No.7429748]

>>7425282
Aesthetically appealing but flawed gameplay wise. Playing this game is what I imagine newbies experience playing 2D Sonic for the first time. Nights moves way too fucking fast and takes up too much space on screen for me to reliably react to enemies. The game isn’t hard by any means but I can’t play well either. The 2.5D perspective exacerbates the problem, as the changing perspective contributes to a lot of on screen noise. Even knowing “the rules” of the game don’t negate these issues. Nights is a game I can play whilst listening to a podcast or in a call but the game itself is heavily flawed. Maybe they could’ve made it work if the gameplay was fully 3D but as it stands its not that good. Still have a soft spot for it cause of the aforementioned aesthetics though but that alone can’t make a game great.

[Anonymous No.7429798]

>>7429621
>muh Mario64 speedrun meme
nice cope.
Nothing about the game is designed around speed running. Its a retroactive thing that became associated with the game as a consequence of it being a sloppily designed and programmed, buggy mess that lends itself to being exploited.

[Anonymous No.7429803]

>>7429798
The Wall Jump is pretty bad and the collecthaton is boring

[Anonymous No.7429805]

>>7429621
>speedrunning Mario 64
Arbitrary bullshit which cringey spastics impose upon themselves, they secretly loathe it.

>scoring NiGHTS
The way the developers intended to make the game always enjoyable whenever you play it.

[Anonymous No.7430382]

>>7429317
>NiGHTS has that classic arcade style of design that rewards good play that gives the game infinite replay value
Maybe if the game was fun that would be true.

[Anonymous No.7430876]

When I play this garbage 2.5D Superman 64 about anime children dreaming about a faggot clown who clumsily flies through rings all I can think about is some crying coping 8 year old Sega only child who has to look on in desperation as Mario 64 sets a new standard in true 3D game design and inspires the creation of an entire subgenre of game.

[Anonymous No.7430893]

>>7425339
no one actually enjoyed it but everyone had it i think it came free with the console for a while

[Anonymous No.7430903]

>>7429357
I mean personally I think Sonic CD actually is my favourite 2D Sonic (I really like Sonic 1 and CD feels closer to it as a sequel compared to Sonic 2), but I wouldn't claim it was the best and I wouldn't be surprised if its relative obscurity results in the same kind of elitism.

[Anonymous No.7430919]

I had no idea that Nights filtered this many people.
>Waaah the game doesn't tell me exactly what to do, leaving me to experiment with the gameplay!
>Waaah Sega is supposed to be edgy, why am I playing a game with clowns from cirque du solei?
>Waaah it's 2.5D when Mario 64 was 3D!
>Waaah it has a scoring system that tells me I sucked when I complete levels!
>Waaah it's hard to control because you don't just hold right on the D-pad and press jump now and then, I thought it was a platformer!

[Anonymous No.7430957]

>>7430919
>leaving me to experiment with the gameplay!
Then you find out the game is literally just flying through rings on loop until a timer nearly runs out.

[Anonymous No.7430962]

>>7430919
>leaving me to experiment with the gameplay
But the game has honestly not much interactivity and very simplistic controls? And it's on a very strict timer?
>it's 2.5D when Mario 64 was 3D
Yeah, if you wanted a revolutionary paradigm shifting experience that moved literally the entire medium of video games forward you played Mario 64. 3D games were the future, cope Segalet.
>it has a scoring system that tells me I sucked
Well if the game is insanely unintuitive and unfun it doesn't feel earned when the game shits on you.
>it's hard to control
nobody said it was hard to control. The controls are absurdly simplistic to the point where the game could be played with an Atari 2600 controller.

[Anonymous No.7431051]

>>7427705
>diablo clone
Which game?

[Anonymous No.7431061]

>>7425282
I don't care about Sonic but Nights is just ok
it doesn't have a lot of levels or variety, actually it feels like a bonus stage for some game but here it's actually the whole game, and they forgot to design good levels or various gameplay elements

[Anonymous No.7431469]

>>7427461
Sonic wasn't even a lot of his doing, he was so butthurt that STI was directing better games than he did.

[Anonymous No.7431490]

>>7427421
>>7431469
If this is true, Naka never deserved a career

[Anonymous No.7431528]

Emulated this game because it keeps being posted on here for some reason (probably stupid e-celeb)

The game sucks. It feels like you're stuck in some horrible nightmare with cheesy music and everything is painfully hard to look at. There's some objects they make you collect & fly thru that you get points for, but you're never incentivized to actually improve because the points don't matter, and you have no idea what your goal is aside from some vague collectathon.

Then you stop being the clown and run around until the clock kills you (wakes you up?). In fact there's no game over - the "night" is over, so you don't get to play anymore.

The entire thing is this non-threatening gender-queer faggotry that just screams autism. You just know chris-chan played this to death. You just fucking know. It's THAT type of game.

[Anonymous No.7432256]

>>7431051
PSO

[Anonymous No.7432263]

/vr/ has shit taste i see.

[Anonymous No.7432268]

>>7432263
It really is, it's
>/vr/ - I'm a zoomer who played Ocarina Of Time, I'm so fucking cool

[Anonymous No.7432407]

>>7427138
>go through stunt ribbon
>fly directly into ground or ceiling
>mash all the trick buttons like a retard
>receive your free "DREAMY" combo
Easy A for every mare that has a ribbon

[Anonymous No.7432451]

>>7425282
Gee I wonder why people are mad at one of the reasons the Saturn didn't sell.

[Anonymous No.7432468]

>>7427421
Yeah, pretty much this, didn't know he was such an asshole though

[Anonymous No.7433247]

>>7430903
>(I really like Sonic 1 and CD feels closer to it as a sequel compared to Sonic 2)
if you specifically liked all the bad design elements of Sonic 1, perhaps.

[Anonymous No.7433252]

>>7431469
You dont know what you are talking about. STI didn't make a single one of the actual good Sonic games. All they made was Spinball. Sonic 2 and 3 had Naka personally go to America and take full control of the project himself. They would have been dumpster fires without him.

[Anonymous No.7433268]

>>7427421
Naka specifically warned them that the technology wasn't ready for 3D Sonic. he told them that before he left STI and went back to Japan, but they didn't fucking listen. Sonic Xtreme went through like 7 different iterations before they tried to rip his engine watthour asking. Anyone who looks at the demos for X-treme can see that the project was doomed from the start and Naka was fucking right, which is why we got 3D Blast and R instead.
If you wanna blame someone, Blaze SoA for not heading his fucking words. Sonic in 3D required more technology and wouldn't work in 3D with the tech they had. Naka didn't force SoA to give their employees shit work conditions and almost kill themselves making a game that was physically impossible to make.
He is not perfect but this is massive spin.

[Anonymous No.7433281]

>>7433268
There was still no fucking reason to throw the ego fueled hissy fit like he did when they wanted to use the nights engine. Just did want to see a popular series made by a team he wasnt a part of to overshadow his indie project

[Anonymous No.7433353]

>>7425282
Because the bonus stages in Sonic Robo Blast 2 have rendered this game obsolete.

[Anonymous No.7433394]

>>7433281
After all the shit he had to put up with them in regards to their mangling of his IP, why would you even be surprised that he didn't tolerate them stealing his engine? They already got done practically stealing his IP.

[Anonymous No.7433410]

>>7425282
Nights is the Sega version of bing bing wahoo

[Anonymous No.7433413]

>>7433410
Ring ring wahoo?

[Anonymous No.7433424]

>>7433394
Because the benefit of the companies success should outweigh his personal grudges

[Anonymous No.7433427]

>>7433410
No, that was Alex the Kid.

[Anonymous No.7433519]

>>7433424
What benefit? Sonic X-treme was still going to be shit. Blame SoA for fucking over its employees.

[Anonymous No.7433547]

>>7433519
Adventure was shit and still managed to coast on the novelty of being Sonic in 3D. The game didn't need to be good, just good enough to placate their fanbase and generate PR.

[Anonymous No.7433557]

>>7433547
>Adventure was shit
no it wasn't.
> and still managed to coast on the novelty of being Sonic in 3D.
Then why didn't Sonic 3D Blast? Sonic R? If its jus about coasting, those should have been just fine.
Face it. The console wasn't ready and X-Treme was a mistake.

[Anonymous No.7433567]

>>7433557
>no it wasn't.
Yes it was. The game was awful even by the standards of the time but people were blown away by the bells and whistles.
>Then why didn't Sonic 3D Blast? Sonic R?
Sonic 3D Blast is Isometric and Sonic R is a poorly balanced racing game. What they needed was a proper 3D entry. Hell even something using Sonic Jam's hub as a base would've appeased the masses and bought the Saturn some good will.

[Anonymous No.7433606]

>>7431490
It's true. Naka's biggest success was pitching a pinball platforming engine to Sonic, which admittedly made the series, but everything after that is questionable to say the least. He was a better programmer than a director.

[Anonymous No.7433680]

>>7433519
It still would have been a boost for sales of the Saturn in North America regardless if it was shit or not. SoJ not giving a shit about the biggest markets for the Master System or Genesis, just because they were finally doing good in their home country, was hugely retarded, because it just means you are not going to have those fans later on when you need those international sales. The Saturn NEEDED a MAIN Sonic game. Fucking Sonic Jam was made because in Japan, kids didnt even know who Sonic was. Yet in the US and Europe, he was top shit. X-Treme would have sold. No one gave a shit about a port of a Genesis game or a racing game, they wanted a new main Sonic game on their new hardware they bought. NiGHTs was a bad mascot for the system, no one knew who it was nor gave a fuck, Sonic is who they know. It also doesn't help that Sega of America was fucking retarded with assuming their fans would wait for all of 1998 till the Dreamcast launch with barely any new games and not move onto another competitors console, but Naka/SoJ was also equally retarded in not pushing some new mainline Sonic title on the Saturn, be it 3D or 2D or whatever.

Naka should have not been a bitching baby, realized his creation was the face of the company, not his new flying clown and either helped do something on the Saturn with substance with Sonic or at the very least provided support in finishing the title that SoA did have in the working stages of.

[Anonymous No.7433723]

>>7433567
>Yes it was. The game was awful even by the standards of the time but people were blown away by the bells and whistles.
im not even an Adventure shill, but to call it bad outright is nonsensical. Spend less time in your echo chamber.
>Sonic 3D Blast is Isometric and Sonic R is a poorly balanced racing game.
I fail to see your point.
>What they needed was a proper 3D entry.
Xtreme was gonna be a weird fish eye game. If Isometric doesn't count as "true 3D" then why does it matter?

[Anonymous No.7433725]

>>7433723
Didn’t they scrap the dumbass fish-eye lens idea before the game was cancelled?

[Anonymous No.7433728]

>>7433680
>It still would have been a boost for sales of the Saturn in North America regardless if it was shit or not.
Would it? If Sonic R and 3D Blast weren't why would X-treme if it was as shit as we are lead to think it would end up being?
>SoJ not giving a shit about the biggest markets for the Master System or Genesis, just because they were finally doing good in their home country
What is this spin? They focused on the west when those consoles did good i the west and the east when it did good in the east.
What is this stupid conspiracy victim complexes?

[Anonymous No.7433729]

>>7433725
X-treme was like 8 different ideas and the last and most well known one we know is the fish eye one

[Anonymous No.7433749]

>>7433728
The myth that the Saturn did "good" in Japan is embarrassing. It -barely- outsold the N64 with both consoles being in the 5.5 million range while the PS1 was around 18million. Sega barely scraped past Nintendo for what was still a very distant second.

To compare in the US market, the Saturn couldn't sell even 2 million units while the N64 sold fucking 20million. The US sales of the "failed" console outdid the Japanese sales of the most successful one. The Saturn wasn't ever successful by any metric.

[Anonymous No.7433783]

>>7433728
>Would it? If Sonic R and 3D Blast weren't why would X-treme if it was as shit as we are lead to think it would end up being?
You just went out and bought the next generation Sega hardware, you are not going to give a flying fuck about a port of a game that is based on a Genesis title, nor will you later on care about a racing spin-off game. If you want Sonic on the Saturn, you want a new title as the successor to the Genesis games.
>What is this spin? They focused on the west when those consoles did good i the west and the east when it did good in the east.
Saturn in Japan had far more exclusives to that region. SoA was also at fault here for not localizing more, but point is that Sonic was fucking huge outside of Japan. As great as Panzer Dragoon or NiGHTs might be, thats not going to have the same mass appeal as Sonic in those regions. Point is that the Genesis crushed sales in Europe and NA and MS in Europe, way more then the sales in their own country. They should have focused on holding onto those markets and one of the biggest ways to do so was to push iconic characters and series that those markets were attached to. Even if Xtreme had been a North America exclusive release, it still would have been something major for that specific market that would have held onto fans, fans that may have been willing to not ditch the Saturn as quickly and move on to other non-Sega consoles.

[Anonymous No.7433784]

>>7433749
>The myth that the Saturn did "good" in Japan is embarrassing. It -barely- outsold the N64 with both consoles being in the 5.5 million range while the PS1 was around 18million. Sega barely scraped past Nintendo for what was still a very distant second.
This is only a myth when you are judging its success on consolewarfaggotry instead of its own merits.

[Anonymous No.7433792]

>>7433783
>You just went out and bought the next generation Sega hardware
I thought the whole point of you shilling X--treme was to try and get more consoles sold? Which is it?
>Saturn in Japan had far more exclusives to that region.
How is that weird for the time? Regional exclusives were rampant back then. Those exclusives wouldn't have been brought over r

[Anonymous No.7433815]

>>7433792
>I thought the whole point of you shilling X--treme was to try and get more consoles sold? Which is it?
Obviously its both. People buying a Saturn expect a new Sonic and those who own a Genesis or GameGear and may want to buy a next generation system would be attracted to by a Saturn if they saw a new Sonic was coming out for it. a NEW sonic. not a port nor a spin off. how many times have a spin-off of a major series ever been a system seller over an actual main game?
>How is that weird for the time? Regional exclusives were rampant back then. Those exclusives wouldn't have been brought over r
Point is that Japan was getting tons of Saturn exclusives, while the rest of the world wasnt. Of course its sales are going to hurt in other countries, but a new Sonic would have been a great boost in those foreign markets.

[Anonymous No.7433820]

>>7433784
Video games are a business, anon.

Also even if you look at them based on merits, the N64 still absolutely wins. It was -FAR- better at 3D video games to the point where its two flagship games, Mario and Zelda, both literally moved 3D game design forward. Zelda was such a masterpiece that it is still widely regarded as the single best video game ever made. 3D games were the future and the Saturn couldn't offer you the future.
As a local multiplayer machine it was also a complete powerhouse thanks to having 4 controller slots by default. Mario Party 1-3, Goldeneye, Smash Bros, Perfect Dark, and any racing game on it were elevated to outright classic status for the multiplayer alone. Even a mostly single player game like Pokemon Stadium is fondly remembered for its multiplayer minigames.

How many Saturn games aside from Panzer Dragoon 2 or Saga do you see popping up on any lists of the best video games ever made? How many Saturn games revolutionized the industry and game design as a whole?

[Anonymous No.7433834]

>>7433815
>Obviously its both.
Sounds like a backpedal. the person who bought a Saturn because they are a SEGA fanboy doesn't need to be convinced to buy a Saturn.
The general consumer isn't gonna know Sonic R vs Sonic X-treme is meaningfully different. they will just buy the game because it has Sonic on it. This is the late 90s we are talking about.

If Sonic 3D Blast and R didn't carry the thing, X-treme wasn't gonna given how shit it looked.

>Point is that Japan was getting tons of Saturn exclusives, while the rest of the world wasnt.
No own told SoA not to make games for the system. They are the ones that insisted on trying to make Xtreme after Naka said it no and hospitalized their own fucking staff. That same time money and energy could have easily went into sequels for Comix Zone or some new IPS to push the system. But no, they insisted on whoring sonic's blue anus out.

[Anonymous No.7433837]

>>7433820
>Video games are a business, anon.
yes and busniess is base don financial returns, not your consolewar opticsfaggotry.
The Saturn did well for SEGA in japan. period. It being "behind Sony " is completely irrelevant unless you are a consolewarfaggot who is seething over the fact his friends at school get to make fun of him for loosing a dick measuring contest.

[Anonymous No.7433848]

>>7433834
Nothing personal, kid

[Anonymous No.7433854]

>>7433837
how come when the N64 does 5.5 million in Japan it's a colossal failure and bomb but when Sega does 5.7 million in Japan it's some huge success?

[Anonymous No.7433881]

>>7433854
>how come when the N64 does 5.5 million in Japan
Because it sold significantly more in the west?

[Anonymous No.7433885]

>>7433834
>Sounds like a backpedal
Not a back peddle at all. Say you are a Nintendo fan buying the next Nintendo system because you expect a new Zelda on it, but then, uhoh, sorry no Zelda is going to come out for the new system you just bought, maybe you will get a spin-off of it if you are lucky. I am not even saying that Xtreme needed to be out to get people to buy a Saturn who owned Genesis, but its going to be a title that keeps them from selling their system if they know an actual exclusive title for it is coming out. Like imagine if the Dreamcast had launched without Sonic Adventure being revealed?
>The general consumer isn't gonna know Sonic R vs Sonic X-treme is meaningfully different.
Bullshit. Thats like saying people would just as happily buy Mario Kart 64 over Mario 64 because, hey, its just Mario who cares? People were not that retarded. Maybe you could get away with that if you were a grandparent buying a game for your grandchildren.
>No own told SoA not to make games for the system. They are the ones that insisted on trying to make Xtreme after Naka said it no and hospitalized their own fucking staff.
I agree, SoA were very, very retarded, but at least they did have a plan to release an all new main Sonic experience on the Saturn while Sonic Team didnt give a shit. SoA knew Sonic was big in the US, they tried to make a new title and ran into problems, they tried to fix those problems with the NiGHTs engine and Naka threw a tantrum. Neither SoJ or SoA was willing to work together for the global benefit of Saturn as a console. Sonic sells, especially in the 90s, especially in the US. Either Naka/SoJ was oblivious to this fact, or just didnt give a shit, despite that being a major region of revenue that would only be boosted by having a new Sonic title as well as holding on to owners of the Saturn already who were being shafted of many other releases that were not coming out on the next generation system they bought.

[Anonymous No.7433894]

>>7433881
The way people talk about the Japanese Saturn sales and Japanese N64 sales are polar opposites and you know that

[Anonymous No.7433906]

>>7433894
>trying to pivot.
Fuck off.

[Anonymous No.7433910]

>>7426970
Your rank means nothing. The timestamp on that link controls worse than Superman 64.

[Anonymous No.7433913]

>>7433885
>I am not even saying that Xtreme needed to be out to get people to buy a Saturn who owned Genesis,
that's litterally the entire backbone of your position. If you aren't saying this, you aren't saying anythign at all.
>but its going to be a title that keeps them from selling their system if they know an actual exclusive title for it is coming out.
X-Treme wouldn't stop them from sealing their system if it was shovelware garbage like it clearly appeared like it was going to be. it being "labeled" a proper entry on the system is irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.7433928]

>>7433885
>SoA were very, very retarded, but at least they did have a plan to release an all new main Sonic experience on the Saturn while
plan my ass. Xtreme started as a project for the genesis, then moved to the 32X, then the Saturn. it was an unthought out mess of a project that was never gonna leave the ground pedaled by incompetent hacks.
They just couldn't leave well enough alone. hell, they could have just released a Sonic spinball 2 or reskinned another game to be a Sonic clone like they did mean bean but no. Its like they "had to prove Naka wrong" or something retarded like that.
Honestly the more I talk about it , the more I sympathies even more with Naka here.

Motherfuckers almost kill their own staff because of a dumb bloodfeud over a Japanese developers' IP that they basically appropriated, but somehow we are trying to blame HIM here? SoA are the ones that failed the system.
the Saturn picked up steam in Japan because SoJ put the effort in getting it off its slump. SoA did nothing because they had jack shit and relied too heavily on trying to whore Sonic out. And quite frankly we are still seeing that attitude today.

[Anonymous No.7433953]

>>7433913
>that's litterally the entire backbone of your position. If you aren't saying this, you aren't saying anythign at all
then you are going to have to point out what I typed that you are arguing against, because my entire position is that Xtreme could have only helped the Saturn, no matter what quality it turned out being. It was still going to be a game that early adopters were going to expect for the Saturn, it was going to be a game that would have attracted Genesis owners to switch to the Saturn and it may have even attracted some who never owned a Sega system. People had no attachment to NiGHTs or Bug or Panzer Dragoon, they did to Sonic.
>X-Treme wouldn't stop them from sealing their system if it was shovelware garbage like it clearly appeared like it was going to be. it being "labeled" a proper entry on the system is irrelevant.
If Sega could get away with releasing stuff like 3D Blast and Sonic Labyrinth, X-Treme was not going to immediately piss off an entire fanbase. You are assuming they would have just released something reminiscent of the few screenshots and videos we have of the game rather then play testing and tweaking things into a playable version. I dare say even if it had been bad, it still would have had the potential for sales regardless. This entire argument is irreverent regardless because you are going off what YOU believe the game looks like and would have played like, yet there are plenty of others that did like what they saw and thought it looked fun.

[Anonymous No.7433978]

>>7433953
>hen you are going to have to point out what I typed that you are arguing against,
woooooooooooosh*
>my entire position is that Xtreme could have only helped the Saturn,
Your position has been that Naka is to blame because Xtreme would have saved the Saturn in the west This is a delusion. it was a fucking dumpster fire of a project.

>>7433953
>If Sega could get away with releasing stuff like 3D Blast and Sonic Labyrinth
They didn't. Also LMAO at regurgitating the Sonic labyrinth ScrewAttack meme. It isn't even a bad game. more importantly, no one fucking played it because it was on the goddamn game gear.
they DIDNT get away with 3DBlast, you brought it up yourself how they supposedly got made fun of for it.
> X-Treme was not going to immediately piss off an entire fanbase
If it was meant to be "the main entry that's totally gonna save the system" it sure as hell would have. you cant have it both ways. Either it was a big deal and would have saved/damaged the brand, or it was irrelevant trash that wouldn't have changed shit, and i lean towards the latter. Hell, you risk getting worst of both worlds since the hardcore base is more likely to get disenfranchised if games like 06 are any indication.

[Anonymous No.7433985]

>>7433928
>Motherfuckers almost kill their own staff because of a dumb bloodfeud over a Japanese developers' IP that they basically appropriated, but somehow we are trying to blame HIM here? SoA are the ones that failed the system.
>the Saturn picked up steam in Japan because SoJ put the effort in getting it off its slump. SoA did nothing because they had jack shit and relied too heavily on trying to whore Sonic out. And quite frankly we are still seeing that attitude today.
Still a retarded stance for them regardless. Both sides were obviously wrong in their own ways, but as a global brand, even if it pisses off one side, they needed to better work things out. "Stole" his IP is a big statement to make, at that point it was a Sega IP, they had ownership of Sonic, they could do what they wanted with it. Regardless if he liked what SoA were doing with Sonic at that point, he really should have just kept his mouth shut and let them fail on their own if it was destined to happen, rather then raise a stink when they tried to fix their project. If Sega was willing to fund it, Naka should have kept his mouth shut or been willing to help in whatever small way he can for the GLOBAL BENEFIT of the company. For the benefit of Sega as a brand. The pointless in fighting, not just limited to X-treme, but many, many other stupid decisions was what killed the company. If Naka really wanted to prove how inferior SoA's version of Sonic was, he should have focused on out-doing it with Adventure. There is litteraly no argument that X-treme would have hurt the Saturn more then it already was, regardless how the game started.

[Anonymous No.7434015]

>>7433985
>Both sides
I say stolen because they actively took measures to deface the brand behind his back in the west against his wishes consistently, from doing things like Changing Sonic's design to the western mohawk one, to changing Amy to fucking Sally in the manuals to calling Tails "Tails the Fox" on the box instead of Miles Tails Prowar like in the actual fucking game.
There was an overt predatory attitude towards the IP in regards to Naka and the japanese staff that showed a clear lack of respect towards their feelings towards the brand, so they have no one to blame but themselves for any animosity that came their way.
You are reporting to a middle ground fallacy here after it has been made clear to you just how fucked SoA was in an attempt to damage control and little else.
SoA got into a petty feud over a devs IP that they were abasically trying to "take away from him" knowing full well it would piss him off and cause friction in the company. They ignored his warnings about trying to make Sonic go 3D just yet, something he was more than familiar with thanks to his work on Sonic 3 which started as a 3D game, wasn't possible.
They ignored him and did it anyway.
Worked their staff to the point of hospitalization on several failed game concepts that never saw the light of day and most of which were technologically impossible to run on any hardware they had.
Then after that they have the audacity to not even ASK permission to use his engine on the NEW game he made so he can actually make what he wanted.
The absolute most you can accuse Naka of here is "being petty" an that's a huge absolute most because he had all the fucking right in the world to be pissed off.
SoA on the other hand was that and several things worse. hospitalizing their staff, engaging in shit business practices, and themselves being extremely petty and antagonistic to the lead programmer and project manager of the franchise.
No wonder Tom Cerny left to make Crash. SoA is a fucking joke

[Anonymous No.7434028]

>>7433978
Ok, fine, allow me to reiterate my stance then:

If we are going by the idea that Naka had no plans for Sonic on the Saturn, that is pure retardation on his part. "Cant do 3D Sonic yet, gonna go do other games instead." Fucking really? Going to ignore the biggest IP Sega has for an entire console generation? Keep in mind, Jam was apparently only made because of some "Sonic Awareness" campaign for Japan because so many kids apparently didnt even know who Sonic was, unlike everywhere else in the world where Sonic was huge.

Sonic 3D Blast is not a system seller because its a port of a game you can already get on older hardware. Idk if that game is even regarded as a "main" Sonic game. Point is, if something like 3D Blast, or Blast on GameGear or Labyrinth, or Spinball or all the other non-traditional Sonic games from back then could get released, there is no reason to believe X-treme wouldn't have been any different. It was a new game, not a port, not a racing game, it was the closest thing the Saturn was going to get to an original, classic-style Sonic game. If SoJ/Naka were not going to release something for the Saturn, 2D or 3D, as a follow-up to the Genesis titles, there was no reason for them to get so pissy about the US division picking up the reigns and actually doing it, because they know Sonic is a big name in that country and they want to capitalize on it.

I dont recall ever saying X-Treme would "save" the Saturn or Sega as a whole, but there is no argument out there that X-Treme being released would have hurt the company further. NOT having a planned Sonic game hurt the system. And once again, we are going off the assumption that if it had been finished and released, it would have been terrible, which is laughable that they would release something completely unplayable. And since you seem to imply 3D Blast was good enough as Sonic on Saturn, then X-Treme would have been about the same level of quality as that, worst case scenario.

[Anonymous No.7434054]

>>7434015
thats mostly all localization changes and marketing. The fact that Sonic was more successful in Europe and the US then he ever was in Japan means it worked and at the end of the day, its the higher ups of the company that are the only ones that give a damn.

Petty is how I would describe his reaction, but not seeing the bigger picture of how an exclusive new title on the Saturn would only strengthen the system and Sega, was poor foresight on this part. Especially if he had no intent to do anything with Sonic on the Saturn and wanted to focus on new IPs. It very petty to not even let another branch of the company work on it just because HE says it "cant be done", on an IP that really doesnt even belong to him anymore, while he goes off and does his own thing but will stamp his foot if anyone else dares to fill in the gap while he is away.

[Anonymous No.7434059]

>>7434028
>If we are going by the idea that Naka had no plans for Sonic on the Saturn, that is pure retardation on his part.
Its not an idea, its a fact. Its why they went to make Nights instead.
And it isn't retarded.
They released shit like R instead.
>Going to ignore the biggest IP Sega has for an entire console generation? Keep in mind, Jam was apparently only made because of some "Sonic Awareness" campaign for Japan because so many kids apparently didn't even know who Sonic was, unlike everywhere else in the world where Sonic was huge.
Jam started as Proto SA1. After NiGHTS was made, the Japanese staff went on to play around with the idea after having helped oversee things like R.
>Sonic 3D Blast is not a system seller because its a port of a game you can already get on older hardware.
This is false. 3DBlast was not originally a Genesis game. it was a Saturn game that was downgraded for genesis. its obvious just by looking at the framerate and resolution of the genesis versions cutscenes versus the Saturn version
>I dont recall ever saying X-Treme would "save" the Saturn or Sega as a whole
Please stop. There is no reason to think X-treme would sell systems anymore than or 3DBlast. The fact you are more familiar with the genesis version of 3DBlast speaks for itself.

[Anonymous No.7434089]

>>7434054
>thats mostly all localization changes and marketing.
You are delusional. there was an active feud internally at SEGA over SoA trying to butcher the IP and implement their western canon shit. Its not simple "localization" to call Amy "Sally Accorn the hedgehog".
That's beyond retarded to think this.

>The fact that Sonic was more successful in Europe and the US then he ever was in Japan means it worked
No it doesn't.
This is what we call a false positive. The foundation set forth by the original devs is what shone through to allow Sonic to succeed in the west. The changes they made are looked back as extremely questionable at best and reviled at worst by the majority of the fanbase today and for good reason.

>its the higher ups of the company that are the only ones that give a damn.
Naka literally states that the reason he invented the Sonic 2 special stages was so that they were forced to show Sonic's quills from behind and couldn't pretend he had a mohawk. You have no clue how heated shit really was.
>but not seeing the bigger picture of how an exclusive new title on the Saturn would only strengthen the system and Sega
SoA are the ones not able to see the bigger picture by relying on whoring Sonic out and not treating the brand with an iota of respect, demanding shitty titles be vomited out just to make a quick buck.
This is the shitty attitude that got us 06 to begin with. how the hell can you defend this?
Naka and Ohsima put a lot of thought into the long-term success of the brand, right down to creating a premise that was indefinitely sustainable, something the western team did not consider whatever and instead just rode the trends of the times.
If not for that foundation, Sonic wouldn't have even HAD anythign to work off of for the Saturn bread crumb offerings it DID get, let alone the future of the series.

[Anonymous No.7434093]

>>7434059
>Its not an idea, its a fact. Its why they went to make Nights instead.
Then that was very, very stupid. Would be like if the GameCube had no Mario games.
>They released shit like R instead.
That was Traveler's Tales, the guys who made 3D Blast.
>Jam started as Proto SA1. After NiGHTS was made, the Japanese staff went on to play around with the idea after having helped oversee things like R.
"Sonic Jam was announced at the 1997 Tokyo Game Show as part of a project to increase market awareness of Sega and the Sonic brand."
It never started out as Proto SA1, or at least thats not why they made it to begin with.
>This is false. 3DBlast was not originally a Genesis game. it was a Saturn game that was downgraded for genesis. its obvious just by looking at the framerate and resolution of the genesis versions cutscenes versus the Saturn version
"In addition to the original Mega Drive version, Sonic 3D Blast was also available for the Sega Saturn to make up for the cancellation of Sonic X-treme, which was intended to be Saturn's killer game for the 1996 holiday season; the game was ported in seven weeks, during development of the Mega Drive version."
>Please stop. There is no reason to think X-treme would sell systems anymore than or 3DBlast. The fact you are more familiar with the genesis version of 3DBlast speaks for itself.
First version of 3D Blast I played was actually on PC, a port of the Saturn version, so I am fammilair with it and the Genesis version as well as the actual Saturn version since I own and have played all 3. 3D Blast on Saturn was never a system seller and even if it was intended to be, there is no reason to belive X-Treme would not have been that tier of quality, worst case scenario.

[Anonymous No.7434112]

>>7434089
Regardless, its marketing decisions. If the higher ups at Sega were so pissed off about what SoA was doing, they would have done something about it.

Did Japan get multiple Sonic cartoons? A long running comic series? Whatever SoA was doing, it was working to spread Sonic as a brand, regardless if it was "canon" or not. Japan, not so much = see Sonic Jam

Like I said, both sides were retarded. SoA had the very right idea of pushing a new Sonic game on the Saturn, thats the shit that sells. They may have "whored" him out, but its what Sonic kiddies wanted. They were very shit with everything else regarding the Saturn however, but X-Treme being released, as no other major Sonic game was on the horizon for the system, was a very good idea. I also dont see how ONE brand new Sonic title for hardware desperately needing it can in ANYWAY be compared to the flood of 2000's Sonic jank, made by the "ONE AND ONLY TRUE SONIC TEAM" mind you, where they absolutely flooded the market with below-average games to the point where it almost did kill the franchise when 06 got rushed out.

[Anonymous No.7434113]

>>7434093
>Then that was very, very stupid. Would be like if the GameCube had no Mario games.
The Saturn did have Sonic games. Enough with the spin.
>That was Traveler's Tales, the guys who made 3D Blast.
Which was supervised by Sonic team. Do your research.
>It never started out as Proto SA1, or at least that's not why they made it to begin with.
Its litterally why the open area exists. its beta SA1. Tails Doll itself from R is a beta SA1 game element turned into a character.

>"In addition to the original Mega Drive version, Sonic 3D Blast was also available for the Sega Saturn to make up for the cancellation of Sonic X-treme, which was intended to be Saturn's killer game for the 1996 holiday season; the game was ported in seven weeks, during development of the Mega Drive version."
This is inaccurate. The game wasn't made for the genesis originally to begin with. it was downgraded and release don the genesis because they knew it would sell better on it than the failure that was the Saturn.
Stop simply quoting wikipedia. its very inaccurate when it comes to this shit.
>3D Blast on Saturn was never a system seller and even if it was intended to be, there is no reason to believe X-Treme would not have been that tier of quality, worst case scenario.
please explain why Xtreme would be when 3DBlast wasn't. Seriously. provide a real respectable argument for why.

[Anonymous No.7434136]

>>7434112
>If the higher ups at Sega were so pissed off about what SoA was doing, they would have done something about it.
You aren't paying attention.
>Did Japan get multiple Sonic cartoons? A long running comic series? Whatever SoA was doing, it was working to spread Sonic as a brand, regardless if it was "canon" or not. Japan, not so much = see Sonic Jam
Sonic conceptually was just always goign to be more popular in America. they knew this before they even released the first game. it was by design. Sonic was MADE to be more popular in the west because especially back then , breaching the west and especially America was the way to reach the universal public zeitgeist.
the UK actually did NOT butcher Sonic the way America did and it was also very successful in the UK and Europe. So no, the western changes has jack shit to do with it.
Again, this is what we call a false positive.
If i take dandruff and accidently get some in the dish and the customer loves it, doesn't mean it was the silver bullet that made them love it. That retarded.
>SoA had the very right idea of pushing a new Sonic game on the Saturn, that's the shit that sells.
Sonic R and 3DBlast dot stop excising just because they say 'they don't count". this is retarded.
No one even knew he Saturn fucking existed. The right idea would be making new IPs and promoting the thing better so that people actually bought it instead of relying on Sonic to carry them.
The Nintendo 64 did not become what it was just by coasting on Mario 64.
Heck 64 isn't even considered the true system seller. That's OoT and Smash Bros.
>They may have "whored" him out, but its what Sonic kiddies wanted.
Clearly not because they didn't buy the system for R and 3D Blast.
This is ALL on SoA.

[Anonymous No.7434158]

>>7434113
>The Saturn did have Sonic games. Enough with the spin.
A version of a game available on older hardware, a compilation of older games and a spin-off racing game. If the Dreamcast just had released with Sonic Shuffle, that would be the same thing right? People wanted a new, big Sonic experience on Saturn, idk why that is hard to comprehend.

>Which was supervised by Sonic team. Do your research.
Ok, so Sonic Team supervised an outside company to create a spin-off then, it still doesnt mean that was their big plans for Sonic on the Saturn, if they even had any.

>Its litterally why the open area exists. its beta SA1. Tails Doll itself from R is a beta SA1 game element turned into a character.
But Jam was not made to be a prototype, they just tacked that on as the hub. Its a proof of concept, but you would have to dig hard to call that a major Saturn Sonic title.

>This is inaccurate. The game wasn't made for the genesis originally to begin with.
You are going to have to show me where you read this, because unless every other source is getting their info from a wrong wikipedia article, I am only seeing the statement that it began on Genesis and ended up ported to the Saturn.

> please explain why Xtreme would be when 3DBlast wasn't. Seriously. provide a real respectable argument for why.
Maybe in Japan, since they never got the Genesis version till much later, there I could see it being a game that would sell as a new Saturn Sonic, but in the US, having a port of a game released on older hardware is not going to be as appealing as a brand new title specifically made for new hardware. I will semi-retract my previous statement since there was stuff like Twilight Princess and Breath of the Wild release on old and new hardware at the same time, but a system exclusive is still going to sell more systems then a game you can get on the hardware you already own.

[Anonymous No.7434170]

>>7434136
>Sonic R and 3DBlast dot stop excising just because they say 'they don't count". this is retarded.
Please show me all the hype there was for for 3D Blast on Saturn and Sonic R, because I have only ever seen X-Treme as the one Sonic game planned for the Saturn that had any kind of excitement.

[Anonymous No.7434796]

>>7433848
Sammy bought Sega after they'd completely shat the bed. IIRC during the Saturn era Sega was owned by SNK.

[Anonymous No.7434802]

>>7434796
CSK*

[Anonymous No.7435834]

>>7433910
Sounds like shitplayer cope to me, try gitting gud instead of blaming the game lad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWcPm2MLkgE

[Anonymous No.7437057]

>>7434170
Thats my point, jackass. there was none so there is no reason to thin there would be for Xtreme.

[Anonymous No.7437059]

>>7434158
The general consumer doesn't know or care about your silly "designation" for the ethereal importance of the given title by virtue of being a "main" entry
Mario kart stomps all mainline Mario. it doesn't fucking matter.

[Anonymous No.7437389]

>>7435834
Skill level isn't going to magically change shit controls.

[Anonymous No.7437431]

>>7433906
He is not wrong, both sucked

[Anonymous No.7437439]

>>7428336
>And it's not just a score attack game; there's the a-life system, which is a kind of proto-Chao system, where you can breed Nightopians or make Nightopian/Nighmarian hybrids.
Why has no one else in this thread addressed this aspect of the game?

[Anonymous No.7437451]

>>7437057
Yes there is because xteeme would have been a mainline sonic, it would have been Sonic 3d, of course there would be hype, not even the same guy but you are retarded.

[Anonymous No.7437541]

>>7426730
nights wasn't hidden; it had tons of advertising

[Anonymous No.7437543]

>>7426398
nights wasn't hidden; it had tons of advertising

[Anonymous No.7437550]

>>7437439
If it's anything like Sonic adventure chao's who gives a fuck.

[Anonymous No.7437670]

>>7437550
People give a fuck.
The music actually changes based on what the Nightopians think of you.
You can play with them.
You can breed them with each other, or cross-breed them with enemies to make hybrids.
It's something that gets overlooked too often when discussing the game.

[Anonymous No.7438147]

>>7437670
The only reason I can see anyone giving a shit about chao's is if they only own one game and have nothing else to play.

[Anonymous No.7438154]

>>7425282
I'm terrible at it, but I enjoy it.

[Anonymous No.7438235]

>>7437670
Maybe if the game wasn't an incredibly confusing simple arcade style game with a very strict timer more people would be experimenting and flying around the levels doing this shit.

[Anonymous No.7439127]

Nightsbros... we fucking won

[Anonymous No.7439137]

What I find bizarre is that they expected it to be a system seller like Mario 64

When it's a time-attack/ hi-score game about flying through rings.

[Anonymous No.7439158]

>>7439137
That's Sega for you, they were always willing to try new and different things, unlike Nintendo who'd just stick to whatever worked and rehash and milk it to death.

[Anonymous No.7439178]

>>7434136
>The Nintendo 64 did not become what it was just by coasting on Mario 64.
This is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Super Mario 64 was THE game everyone wanted. The console would've been dead on the water by the time OoT and Smash came out had SM64 not been released. You are being intentionally facetious by trying to argue that spinoff games have the same impact as major releases.

[Anonymous No.7439193]

>>7439158
If only they tried good things instead.

[Anonymous No.7439209]

>>7439158
>Saturn fails because SEGA can't make the jump to 3D game design, rehashes arcade style gameplay
>Try new and different things

[Anonymous No.7439410]

>>7439209
what's another game that plays like nights that came before it

[Anonymous No.7439418]

>>7439158
Mario 64 was not only a huge leap forward for cameras in 3D games but 3D game design in general, and its general structure literally inspired an entire subgenre of platformer that persists to this day.

Zelda Ocarina of Time pushed 3D game design so far ahead that basically every 3rd person video game ever released after it borrows something from it. Saying that Nintendo weren't trying new and different things when they were literally revolutionizing the medium and setting the standard for the entire industry is the most massive cope in the history of this board.

[Anonymous No.7439423]

>>7439410
>that came before it
Cleverly ruling out Superman 64 I see.

[Anonymous No.7439427]

>>7439410
Nothing thankfully, since its gameplay is shit.

[Anonymous No.7439431]

>>7439410
Flying into rings for points isn't a novel concept.
Not to say that NiGHTS isn't fantastic but the fact SEGA as a whole struggled with making the jump to 3D shouldn't be a controversial statement. Their only real success trying to pioneer novel 3D gameplay was VF.

[Anonymous No.7439509]

>>7439431
>Flying into rings for points isn't a novel concept.
Neither is running around a map looking for coins and stars to collect, though.

[Anonymous No.7439537]

>>7439509
See>>7439418

[Anonymous No.7439546]

>>7438235
I think it is a cool system, but Nights really isn't the game for this kind of stuff.
In fact, I don't know why the kept the walking sections as a "fail state".
I like the game despite its flaws, but it is the most schizophrenic arcade game ever made.

[Anonymous No.7439547]

>>7439418
If someone brings up Mario 64 and OoT as an infallible yardstick of perfection for 3D gaming that everything else must be compared to again, I think I'm going to scream.

[Anonymous No.7439558]

>>7439537
He was talking about the conceptual, not the technical. Bing bing yahoo 64 was not a novel idea for a videogame.

[Anonymous No.7439559]

>>7439547
C O P E

[Anonymous No.7439569]

>>7439547
Mario 64 and OoT are infallible yardsticks of perfection for 3D gaming that everything else will be compared to.

[Anonymous No.7439576]

>>7439547
>Why are these games that massively influenced everything that came after them being used as points of reference for discussions on the medium.

[Anonymous No.7439582]

>>7439559
It's just NPC-tier to be fucking like
><insert early 3D game here> is shit, but Mario 64 on the other hand!
Change the fucking record /vr/, it's like a fucking evangelical religion at this point.

[Anonymous No.7439587]

>>7439576
Nah, I don't think so.

[Anonymous No.7439592]

>>7439569
I agree with Arin on OoT, it's overrated now because everyone jerks it off too much.

[Anonymous No.7439594]

>>7439582
Mario 64 did right what every other game at the time did wrong. Obviously people are going to compare games from the same era with a game like that.
>>7439592
>I agree with Arin on OoT
Opinion instantly discarded.

[Anonymous No.7439598]

>>7439158
Fucking retard, hell Sonic, Sega's biggest success doesn't go far from the 2d platform formula at all

[Anonymous No.7439603]

>>7439582
I am a yuge SEGAfag but it was the one autistic NiGHTS poster who brought those games into the discussion.
>The sheer fucking arrogance to accuse Nintendo of doing the same thing over and over when they laid the blueprints for 3D game design
It is actual cope

[Anonymous No.7439607]

>>7439594
>Mario 64 did right what every other game at the time did wrong
Elaborate? Because playing it myself it has it's fair share of jank.
>Opinion instantly discarded.
I already discarded yours and everyone else's opinion as soon as the discussion of fucking Mario 64 comes up when trying to discuss any other game from the same era. Some bing bing wahoo cunt always needs to prove to everyone about what a fucking connoisseur they are by bringing up a game that gets praise from everyone with their head up their ass.

[Anonymous No.7439614]

>>7439607
>Elaborate?
The only 3D platformer before Mario 64 that is even worth playing is Jumping Flash. A first person platformer where you don't so much jump as you do float.
>Some bing bing wahoo cunt always needs to prove to everyone about what a fucking connoisseur they are by bringing up a game that gets praise from everyone with their head up their ass.
People are obviously going to compare similar games to the game everybody knows and clearly changed 3D gaming. I don't know what you expected really.

[Anonymous No.7439618]

I am going to play and LOVE Super Mario Sunshine just to fuck off 64 fags.

[Anonymous No.7439619]

>all these Saturnturds not understanding Nights had to be what Crash and SM64 were to their respective consoles
Of course that was always impossible, not only it's not a proper 3D scotformer but it's not Sonic.
I still don't understand why this shit was prioritized over a proper main title for the saturn. SoJ it's probably the most self destructive company in history.

[Anonymous No.7439623]

>but muh revolutionary 3D fat plumber game that laid the groundwork for modern cancer

No thanks, I'll take NiGHTS with its far superior sidescrolling gameplay and timelessly classic game design.

[Anonymous No.7439630]

>>7439623
>Saturnfags had to play this unfinished mess over SM64 or Crash
Lmao, I would feel terrible for any Segafag that fell for it but I never knew any, they all understandably jumped ship.

[Anonymous No.7439632]

>>7439623
After getting all A ranks in Nights I can't imagine anybody liking it more than Mario 64 unless they have severe Chris Chan tier autism. It's just not a very fun game. Even played at a high level it's just flying through rings on loop. It's honestly baffling a team of experienced game developers made it and nobody thought it might be just a little bare bones.

[Anonymous No.7439638]

>>7439614
It just doesn't need to come up all the fucking time, like NiGHTs isn't even a platformer. The way you're describing it, we have to mention Mario 64 just to pay tribute to it, like I get that it's a well liked game and it did well to transition Mario from 2D to 3D but you're talking about it like it were Jesus Christ son of Miyamoto, programmed to pay for all the 5th gen's sins.

Nothing is as good as people make out Mario 64, getting laid seems to pale in comparison to slamming that cartridge into a 64 and hopping around like Mario got a Tabasco enema.

[Anonymous No.7439649]

>>7439619
Yeah, it's not a platformer, so why fucking compare it?

[Anonymous No.7439652]

>>7439638
>It just doesn't need to come up all the fucking time, like NiGHTs isn't even a platformer
Nights was Sega's Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot. It was what made or broke the system. And it was a game you could beat in an hour and even when played for le score attack autism is nearly identical to blindly flailing through the game gracelessly.

[Anonymous No.7439661]

>You don't get it is an arcade high score type of game
I went to arcades and I wouldn't play that crap if I were to saw it there, not an excuse.

[Anonymous No.7439662]

>>7439618
>>7439623
You're giving me second hand embarrassment. I bet you're the kind of retard who only likes NiGHTS because you think it gives le ebin retro gamer cred.

>>7439619
>I still don't understand why this shit was prioritized over a proper main title for the saturn. SoJ it's probably the most self destructive company in history.
Its not unreasonable to believe that at the time they weren't expecting 3D gaming to take off so aggressively and explosively. SM64 was revolutionary, Its hard for zoomers to believe but the aggressive "GAMES NEED TO BE 3D" mentality of 5th gen is a product of what Nintendo was doing. People were really apprehensive about 3D in 95.

[Anonymous No.7439670]

>>7439649
Same reason people compare OoT and FF7, same reason people compare SM64 and Crash (you could also say they are too different).
Because Nights was supposed to be a flagship title like them.

[Anonymous No.7439680]

>>7439662
That doesn't explain why it had to be a weird Superman 64 instead of a proper platformer with console game style progression.

[Anonymous No.7439687]

>>7439652
>Nights was Sega's Mario 64 or Crash Bandicoot.
No, that's just something people insist is the case because it happened to be made by Sonic Team. We all know now what happened to Sonic X-treme, it was always intended to be made by a different team and the interim games were Sonic R and Sonic 3D. NiGHTs was never intended to be killer app for the Saturn anywhere, in Japan it ended up being Sakura Taisen and Model 2 arcade ports and in the west it was expected to be X-treme.

Just let the meme die that NiGHTs was supposed to take on Mario 64, Mario 64 is a good enough game that it doesn't need disingenuousness to make it look even more favourable.

[Anonymous No.7439694]

>>7439687
>NiGHTs was never intended to be killer app for the Saturn anywhere
>"Nights was marketed with a budget of $10 million, which included television and print advertisements in the United States"

[Anonymous No.7439695]

>>7427461
Imagine killing your entire company because of one (1) guy
Fucking retarded sega suits

[Anonymous No.7439696]

>>7439687
>people insists
Even Sega acknowledges Nights as the Saturn's mascot

[Anonymous No.7439703]

>>7439680
>Superman 64 instead of a proper platformer with console game style progression.
How quickly we forget that the Saturn did have a game which was meant to be a flagship Platformer. NiGHTS wasn't meant to fill in the niche of being a platformer but instead of being the Saturn's "Sonic": A highly unique game thats visually distinct from the competition.

[Anonymous No.7439712]

>>7439694
>Sega spent X marketing Nights
So that's evidence that it's supposed to be a competing platforming game to Mario 64, because Sega spent money marketing it as oppose to what? Not marketing it at all?

[Anonymous No.7439714]

>>7439703
It needed to be Sonic, not this fucked up Gex

[Anonymous No.7439716]

>>7439712
>So that's evidence that it's supposed to be a competing platforming game to Mario 64
No it's proof they thought that their gay jester game would be a huge system seller.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160512023524/http://adage.com/article/news/sega-powers-battle-surging-sony-60-mil-campaign-designed-recapture-lead-videogames/78062/

[Anonymous No.7439718]

>>7439703
I can't imagine they unironically thought this super fx game could actually compete with mario and crash

[Anonymous No.7439721]

>>7439712
See >>7439703
It was supposed to be the Saturn's Sonic

[Anonymous No.7439723]

NiGHTS is actually the perfection of the Gotta Go Fast approach to game design that was laid out by Sanic, whose major flaw was that going too fast will punish you, but not so in NiGHTS, as you're more capable of avoiding obstacles due to not being tied to the ground. Once you figure this out, you'll understand the brilliance and beauty of NiGHTS which the geniuses at Sanic Team came up with, and fall in love...

[Anonymous No.7439728]

>>7425312

I have never played it before so what do I need to know before i start this game for the first time?

[Anonymous No.7439735]

>>7439716
How is that proof? The link literally says that Nights was $10 million as part of a $60 million to compete with PlayStation. If Nights was what Sega thought would sell the Saturn they'd have spent the whole $60 million on it.
I just don't get why, for a game that get so much praise already, you need to make shit up so you can force the comparison between Nights and Mario 64 despite the two being entirely different games?

[Anonymous No.7439737]

>>7439714
I'm aware

>>7439718
>I can't imagine they unironically thought this super fx game could actually compete with mario and crash
Bugs came out before those games and was released to rave reviews. Before Super Mario 64 was released it was considered to be among the best 3D platformers on the market and got 9/10s across the board.

[Anonymous No.7439749]

>>7439703
no the flagship 3d platformer on the saturn is Croc

[Anonymous No.7439751]

Why are Segafags so delusional?
They are always defending garbage. My first contact with Segautism was a friend of mine that pretended that Altered Beast was the greatest game of all time. It is the same thing for Nights and Shenmue.

[Anonymous No.7439758]

>>7427461
Back in the Sonic Cult days, some dumb bitch named her baby after Yuji Naka. I'll see if I can find the birth certificate once I'm home.

[Anonymous No.7439764]

>>7439735
>How is that proof?
How is 10 million dollars spent on marketing and a Christmas themed demo designed to increase sales of the console not proof that Sega thought this gay jester game would be a system seller?

[Anonymous No.7439772]

>>7439764
Because you're making it out like it's unusual to spend millions marketing any game.

[Anonymous No.7439773]

>>7433394
The IP always belonged to Sega, Naka was just an asshole with a rock star complex.

[Anonymous No.7439778]

>>7439735
>If Nights was what Sega thought would sell the Saturn they'd have spent the whole $60 million on it.
>Entire Console Library gets a 60million budget for advertising
>ONE GAME gets 1/6th of it
>This game wasn't pushed as a system seller
Retarded NiGHTSfag please. You brought the nintendo games into the discussion by saying nintendo did the same shit, and now that you're getting BTFO, you're trying to back peddle.

[Anonymous No.7439782]

>>7439772
You're acting like spending 10 millions dollars to advertise a game made exclusively for your console doesn't show confidence that the game will sell consoles.

[Anonymous No.7439784]

>>7439778
>ONE GAME gets 1/6th of it
Yeah one fucking first party game that happened to be the latest at the time, that proves nothing.
>You brought the nintendo games into the discussion by saying nintendo did the same shit, and now that you're getting BTFO, you're trying to back peddle.
That wasn't me, I haven't even seen the post you're referring to.

[Anonymous No.7439787]

>>7433606
>He was a better programmer than a director.

No. The 2d Sonic games had collission bugs in every single iteration where you could get pushed through walls, and the 3d ones had fucked up camere and even WORSE collission issues starting from burning rangers and all the way up to Generations (didn't play the later games).

He was a joke as both programmer and director, he just got lucky with Sonic getting popular.

[Anonymous No.7439793]

>>7439787
His port of GnG was also the only one with shitty hitboxes.

[Anonymous No.7439796]

>>7433729
The fisheye was only like the 4th or 5th. They had the pool thing, the boss fight engine, the boss fight engine reworked as a full 3d game, and then reworked to use full polygon characters.
Meanwhile they tried to get the fisheye thing sold as a PC game.

[Anonymous No.7439804]

>>7439787
>>7439793
At the very least he's a good ideas guyWhen he's paired with Naoto Oshima to restrain him. All of his games have very interesting gameplay mechanics even if not all of them work out.

[Anonymous No.7439806]

>>7439782
Right so if you're head of a game company
>Anon-senmue, we have another first party game releasing. how much should we spend on marketing in the lead up for Christmas?
>"Errr none really, I mean we don't want people who read Advertising Age to think we're hedging all our bets on the future of the console on this one game, just let it be obscure and unmentioned."
Well done anon, great work.

As an aside, why do you even have that link? Did you already research and rehearse your arguments for why Mario 64 and NiGHTs are supposed to be direct competitors? Like are you that desperate for everyone to love Mario 64 as much as you do?

[Anonymous No.7439812]

How long until Schizo NiGHTS kun becomes a board meme and I won't be able to discuss my favorite game without someone bringing up SM64 like the current HL situation.

[Anonymous No.7439814]

>>7439804
Pfft, you're preaching to the converted, it's not allowed to discuss Sega with any positivity on /vr/ without getting the Nintentoddler's backs up.

[Anonymous No.7439821]

>>7439814
Man I really wish I had that "You're the only one talking about pancakes image" saved
It has been a long fucking while since I've seen such an intense fandom driven persecution complex.

[Anonymous No.7439823]

>>7433749
Saturn outsold both PSX and N64 in 94 and 95, maybe even 96 due to Virtua Fighter being fucking huge over there.
Problem was that Sony pushed them into a pricing war and they had to keep selling the console at a lower and lower price, and this racked up losses so much that their ingenious solution was to just not make more of the console despite the huge demand.

They barely made one or two hundred thousand units in total by 1998, and most of those went to the special skeleton models.

And in America they sold fuck all because their launch was such a disaster that it pissed off every retailer who then refused to carry Sega items anymore. Not that it mattered because they didn't have enough console stock to sell anyway, for the aformentioned reasons.

[Anonymous No.7439826]

>>7439806
>Did you already research and rehearse your arguments for why Mario 64 and NiGHTs are supposed to be direct competitors?
No I just looked up the Wikipedia for Nights and found that as the source for them spending 10 million dollars on advertising. The fact of the matter is Nights was supposed to be the flagship game for their Saturn console. They spent millions advertising it, they made a free Christmas themed demo for it, they advertised it as being made by the Sonic developers. It is undeniable that it was intended to compete with games like SM64 and Crash.

[Anonymous No.7439835]

>>7439814
No, sonic was my favourite franchise in the 90s and I administered a sonic site for half the 00s. Naka is still an asshole and Sega was a classic case of a company being out of touch with its fans and not giving them what they want, torpedoing their own success.

[Anonymous No.7439847]

>>7439826
>No I just looked up the Wikipedia for Nights and found that as the source for them spending 10 million dollars on advertising.
I just don't believe that I'm afraid, seems like a really specific thing to target.
>The fact of the matter is Nights was supposed to be the flagship game for their Saturn console.
It's not a fact, it's just your assertation.
> They spent millions advertising it, they made a free Christmas themed demo for it,
Yeah, to sell a fucking game.
>they advertised it as being made by the Sonic developers.
And why not? It was.
> It is undeniable that it was intended to compete with games like SM64 and Crash.
Again, why do you need to keep trying to assert this? They're both good games in their own right, without you needing to compare their platforming to a game that wasn't a platformer.

[Anonymous No.7439854]

>>7439821
Literally 90% of the thread is people shitting on NiGHTs

[Anonymous No.7439872]

>>7439854
Literally 90% of the thread is people shitting on NiGHTs
Yes and?

[Anonymous No.7439873]

>>7439854
As someone who LIKES NiGHTS this thread can be broken down into
>People who like NiGHTS
>People who don't
>Schizos who keep fucking bringing up Super Mario 64 to shut down the opinions of people who don't and then accuse them of needlessly comparing different games when they inevitably get BTFO

[Anonymous No.7439875]

>>7439847
>I just don't believe that I'm afraid, seems like a really specific thing to target.
Is using a search engine really that foreign a concept to you?
>It's not a fact, it's just your assertation.
"The project was originally borne, [pauses] well, NiGHTS came out in July, and we wanted to increase the sell-through of Sega Saturns, so we decided to make a pack-in demo of NiGHTS."

[Anonymous No.7439887]

>>7439873
>Schizos who keep fucking bringing up Super Mario 64 to shut down the opinions of people who don't
The first mention of Mario 64 was this post >>7427421

Again, why do you need to keep making things up? Not everyone needs to like what you like you fucking autist.

[Anonymous No.7439898]

>>7439875
>Is using a search engine really that foreign a concept to you?
No it's just
>Quick! I need to prove that Nights was always intended to be the killer app for the Saturn
>I know! I'll google how much Sega spent on marketing for it!
>That will prove it for sure!
Seems like a really specific way to go, seems implausible that happened in the moment.

[Anonymous No.7439913]

>>7439898
How else would you prove that Nights was supposed to be the killer app? Looking up advertising costs was literally the very first thing I thought of. First place to look was Wikipedia, followed by the source on Wikipedia of course.

[Anonymous No.7439941]

>>7439913
>How else would you prove that Nights was supposed to be the killer app
You don't need to if you're not trying to make disingenuous comparisons. Everyone knows the Saturn's killer app in the west got cancelled, the fact that NiGHTs got some marketing money one year means literally nothing since companies always have a marketing budget to spend.

But look I can be disingenuous myself, lets go to the 6th gen. Wow Super Mario Sunshine, what a shit and gimmicky game, how did Nintendo expect their flagship game to compete with Sony and GTA III and Microsoft with Halo? Those games revolutionised the industry!
>Insert some arbitrary statistic that proves Mario Sunshine was supposed to be a Halo and GTA beater

[Anonymous No.7439953]

>>7439941
>Wow Super Mario Sunshine, what a shit and gimmicky game, how did Nintendo expect their flagship game to compete with Sony and GTA III and Microsoft with Halo?
I agree with this statement entirely. If you can see how this is true how can you not see how this also applies to Nights?

[Anonymous No.7439963]

>>7439953
So you weren't being disingenuous? You literally can only see games as a zero-sum game of competition? The only reason anyone makes a game is to just outdo another game?

[Anonymous No.7439968]

>>7439963
No I'm not being disingenuous when I compare games released in the same time period with the same goal (being a killer app for the console) as competing games.

[Anonymous No.7439980]

>>7439968
But you actually agree that Super Mario Sunshine was directly competing with GTA III and Halo? Despite being vastly different games?

I hate to use cliché words, but you're pretty soulless as gamers go.

[Anonymous No.7439995]

>>7439980
>Super Mario Sunshine was directly competing with GTA III and Halo?
Sunshine came out in 2002 but yes. Luigi's Mansion is more of an apt comparison to GTA III and Halo.

[Anonymous No.7440004]

>this retard still not understanding nights was supposed to be a flagship title and that's why it's being compared to sm64

[Anonymous No.7440012]

>>7439995
Well now I just think you only "like" Mario 64 because it's the more popular game. So we can add the cliché of labelling you an NPC as well.

[Anonymous No.7440021]

>>7440004
>>7439995
Samefag

[Anonymous No.7440026]

>>7440012
Aren't NPCs supposed to be incredibly dense and unable to comprehend certain concepts? Because if so that applies to you more than it does me.

[Anonymous No.7440036]

>>7440026
>Aren't NPCs supposed to be incredibly dense and unable to comprehend certain concepts?
No, you really thought that was what the NPC meme was? NPCs just defend the status quo mindlessly, support whatever is popular for no reason other than because it's popular.

>Because if so that applies to you more than it does me.
Sorry, just to clarify, you do believe that Super Mario Sunshine and Halo:CE are to be directly compared? And that Mario Sunshine is worse because it didn't sell Gamecubes like Halo sold Xboxes?

[Anonymous No.7440054]

>>7440036
>Super Mario Sunshine and Halo:CE are to be directly compared?
They are to be compared as system sellers, killer apps, a reason to buy the console.
>And that Mario Sunshine is worse because it didn't sell Gamecubes like Halo sold Xboxes?
Sunshine isn't necessarily a worse game because it failed to sell people on the Gamecube, it's more of a reflection of the tastes of the average person in 2002. Mario was old hat and adding a water jetpack wasn't going to make him more appealing to GTA 3 with its open world or Halo with its local multiplayer.

[Anonymous No.7440064]

>>7439751
>Altered Beast is the greatest game of all time
BASED taste. As expected of a fellow SegaCHAD.

[Anonymous No.7440089]

>>7440054
>They are to be compared as system sellers, killer apps, a reason to buy the console.
And that matters if you're a marketer, don't see how that should factor in for a gamer.
>blah blah Sunshine isn't a worse game, it was just different from the other games
Thank you, you finally opened you mind to the idea.

Still totally fucking soulless and NPC-tier of you to give any shits about the number of sales a game had when rating them, utterly unrelated to why we enjoy games.
>inb4 you claim you don't but you just wanted to force a comparison between Mario 64 and NiGHTs
Yeah, I know.

[Anonymous No.7440098]

>>7440089
>And that matters if you're a marketer, don't see how that should factor in for a gamer.
What I'm getting at is Nights never had a broad appeal despite Sega marketing it as if it did. I'm sure there's someone out there who is just ecstatic to fly through rings for an hour max but the majority of people would rather play something more new and engaging.

[Anonymous No.7440102]

>>7440021
Seethe more retard

[Anonymous No.7440103]

>>7440098
Literally had nothing to do whether that makes NiGHTs good or bad, even by your own admission. Try not to be a sheep in future, you might enjoy playing something most people don't get.

>>7440102
Pretty defensive if I got it wrong.

[Anonymous No.7440108]

>>7440103
>Literally had nothing to do whether that makes NiGHTs good or bad, even by your own admission.
Yes but it is why people compare it to Mario or Crash.

[Anonymous No.7440129]

>>7440108
>Yes but it is why people compare it to Mario or Crash.
I know they do, that's why I said they were wrong to in the first place and in the end you agree with me. They're different games, the fact that Mario and Crash were more popular doesn't intrinsically mean NiGHTs was objectively a bad game, any more than Halo's popularity makes Super Mario Sunshine objectively a bad game.

My suspicion is that Mario and Crash fans just get defensive over what they see as elitist contrarianism if someone likes NiGHTs and push back against it, but I don't want to get into it. We've wasted enough of each other's time I think.

[Anonymous No.7440131]

>>7425349
This desu I love the game but I could live without the gameplay

[Anonymous No.7440257]

>>7440098
Flying through rings is more fun then it sounds and when you take a step back its very satisfying to play what is essentially a cirque de soliel performance

[Anonymous No.7440339]

>>7437451
You're fucking stupid. the label of "mainline" in the fucking late 90s is irrelevant. Sonic 3DBlast was called Sonic 3DBlast. people saw it as Sonic's 3D entry, where do you think the rocky start in 3D meme comes form?

[Anonymous No.7440350]

>>7439632
64fags are are the definition of bootlicking autists. imagine liking a game so broken that you can infinite heal just by swimming because the devs forgot to separate your health from your breathing.
64s camera is so fucking jank, it makes Bubzy seem reasonable.
Being first in line doesn't mean jack fucking shit. The game controls like ass.

[Anonymous No.7440356]

>>7440350
>The game controls like ass.
Nobody with even a modicum of gaming skill has ever said this about Mario 64. Sad but true.

[Anonymous No.7440359]

>>7440350
Uh oh.

[Anonymous No.7440371]

>>7439773
Nobody cares about whether the company officially owns the IP. Nintendo would never allow Miyamoto to be disrespected in that way. SEGA and SoA had no excuse. It wasn't rockstar complex in play. Sonic was Naka';s autism baby and they were doing the equivalent of trying to force it to transition at the age of 3.

[Anonymous No.7440378]

>>7439796
>the boss fight engine reworked as a full 3d game
wasn't that engine the fish eye engine but it just rotated instead?

[Anonymous No.7440403]

>>7440356
>Nobody with even a modicum of gaming skill has ever said this about Mario 64.
litterlaly the only peopel that say this are 64autists though
You cant even turn around in that shitty game without the turn speed making you fall off of fucking platforms. The games claim to fame is being first in line and being so jank it inspired a competition to see who can break it more than the other person next to them.
Take of the nostalgia goggles.
The camera alone is inexcusably bad.

[Anonymous No.7440408]

>>7440403
>You cant even turn around in that shitty game without the turn speed making you fall off of fucking platforms
>The camera alone is inexcusably bad
Holy shit you fucking suck at video games lmao.

[Anonymous No.7440452]

>>7439812
Explain

[Anonymous No.7440463]

>>7440339
>it is irrelevant
No, no one would call sonic R mainline and neither 3d blast

[Anonymous No.7440580]

>>7439127
If by winning you meant killing all chance your console had out of spite

[Anonymous No.7440691]

>>7440408
I've beaten more games than you know by name. 64 isn't hard, it just plays like shit.
All you need to do to realize it is play any other 3D platformer on the N64 and its night and fucking day.

[Anonymous No.7440694]

>>7440463
nobody cares whether they do or not. The general consumer in the mid to late 90s doesn't know or care.
People thought Spinball was a main line entry back then

[Anonymous No.7440695]

>>7440691
>I've beaten more games than you know by name
Damn... What a badass. Too bad you suck so much at video games you complain about a children's game being too hard for you lmao.

[Anonymous No.7440714]

>>7440691
64 plays better than it's sequel, lmao

[Anonymous No.7440796]

>>7440580
NiGHTS didn't kill the Saturn, the one responsible for that was Bernie fucking Stolar.

[Anonymous No.7440813]

>>7440796
>Stolar was born into a Jewish family
Yeah, I can get behind that

[Anonymous No.7440823]

>>7440714
beyond delusional

[Anonymous No.7440830]

>>7440695
>im not complaining about it being hard. One of the complaints I made is about how you can infinite heal by stepping in fucking water.
Im criticizing it for being janky as fuck because it is.

[Anonymous No.7440831]

>>7440796
Bernie Stolar is a massive cunt but I really don't blame him when SoJ was being equally massive cunts. He inherited a shit situation and made it worse to extract as much short term profit as possible because there was no mending it. It wouldn't be much different if he bent over backwards for the japs and did everything they wanted.

[Anonymous No.7441497]

deciding to release like, what was it, only 5 games for all of 98 on the Saturn in the US and then literally nothing else up until the Dreamcast launch, was the most ass-backwards, fucking full ultra-retard tier pinnacle of shit-for-brainsness to ever be shat out by a dementia ridden toddler of company

[Anonymous No.7441647]

>>7439418
3D platforming had been around since 1990 and Mario 64's camera is nothing to boast about. Moving away from fixed camera angles was a mistake.
>>7439431
Pilotwings is better than Nights.
>>7439751
Altered Beast is great. Upset it doesn't hold your hand and give you an easy victory? Shenmue is good as well.
>>7440064
Sega Chads unite!

[Anonymous No.7441662]

>>7441647
>Pilotwings is better than Nights.
Pilotwings is a boring tech demo. NiGHTS however is actually a game.

[Anonymous No.7441670]

>>7441662
It was fun exploring, flying down waterfalls and under bridges. Nights is an abortion in comparison.

[Anonymous No.7442023]

>>7441662
They are both tech demos but PW at least looks pretty

[Anonymous No.7442070]

It's a fucking arcade game. The time limit is ridiculous. You're suppose to be making 30 hour action adventure games and JRPGs in the fifth gen - not repetitive arcade games.

[Anonymous No.7442093]

>>7442070
Arcades were still increasing in popularity in Japan in the 90s, not waning like in the west.

[Anonymous No.7442193]

>>7442070
>not repetitive arcade games.
Crazy Taxi was fine. Nights blew.

[Anonymous No.7442331]

>>7427461
>Has Naka ever had a notable success that wasn't Sonic?
Phantasy Star Online. I swear this board is filled with mongoloids

[Anonymous No.7442348]

>>7433680
literal consoomerspeak

[Anonymous No.7442660]

>>7442070
>arcade games bad
yea okay, faggot

[Anonymous No.7442685]

>>7442660
>using gamer words to prop up own arguments
ew

[Anonymous No.7442987]

>>7442193
Both are great, but I can't into Crazy Taxi because good runs last literally for several hours.

[Anonymous No.7443047]

>>7442660
Yeah. They are. That's why they died everywhere but Japan and consumers worldwide overwhelmingly favored more complex and content filled experiences.

[Anonymous No.7443107]

>>7443047
here's a board better suited for the likes of (You)

>>>/vrpg/

[Anonymous No.7443125]

>>7442331
now read the other replies and realize that the part of PSO he was responsible for was the worst part of the fucking game. he's a hack.

[Anonymous No.7443721]

>>7443125
>the worst part of the fucking game.
which was?

[Anonymous No.7445161]

I didn't play it until the PS3 re-release, I'll admit I didn't "get it" at first but I eventually liked it. Funny because I felt the same way about Sonic CD as a kid and only learned to like it after the 2011 version, both are directed by Oshima, and both excel at Time Attack/Score based gameplay, neither of which usually appeal to me. Even though I enjoyed playing both of them if I'm being honest probably half of my enjoyment comes from the aesthetics and music they have.

[Anonymous No.7445502]

>>7443107
Nights has no challenge whatsoever

[Anonymous No.7446743]

>>7425282
I don't hate it, but I was a bit disappointed. Understand that the VAST majority of us never got around to playing Nights (or any other saturn games) until long after the fact. By the time I got to play it, the game was hyped to the moon and back by people who played it, developing a cult following. So I thought I was going to be in for something truly special, and just got a score attack game where you loop around some extremely limited courses collecting balls.

Again, it's not a bad game, but this had been hyped up to me as being the system's magnum opus, equivalent to mario 64

[Anonymous No.7446781]

>>7443107
Boo hoo, nobody cares about your autistic quarter milking garbage games that are 15 minutes long.
if they did care the Saturn wouldn't have been a complete and utter failure.

[Anonymous No.7446847]

>>7442348
but its truth

[Anonymous No.7446952]

>>7439835
it's sad but true

[Anonymous No.7448397]

>>7445502
It does if you go for A-ranks / good scores.

[Anonymous No.7448518]

>>7425312
You fly to the right collecting shit
It is fucking simple
Zoomers are retarded

[Anonymous No.7448903]

I want to fuck the loli and nights and evil nights fuck you jannies

[Anonymous No.7450012]

>>7446847
X-Treme, even at the time, looked like absolute dogshit worse than likes of 06. You cannot convince anyone that isn't a diehard classic purist that anyone would have bought it. NiGHTS engine aside, the game would have come out too late like Sonic R and 3D Blast and it would have flopped. They had already started development on a game for the saturn as well but because the saturn flipped it ended up having to get remade for the Dreamcast. The fact that these people actually think that X-Treme wouldn't have resulted in the brand tanking anyway just shows how they can't separate their bias from reality

[Anonymous No.7450047]

>>7425282
>We didn't get Sonic Xtreme because Yuji Naka autistic spazzed out over muh Nights engine being used for Sonic

Also my brother watched me play Nights for a few minutes and threw up his Taco Bell.

[Anonymous No.7450053]

>>7450047
>Taco Bell.
Probably wasn't cause of Nights

[Anonymous No.7450058]

>>7439758
>Back in the Sonic Cult days, some dumb bitch named her baby after Yuji Naka. I'll see if I can find the birth certificate once I'm home.

Found it.

[Anonymous No.7450062]

>>7450058
>>7439758
This was back in 2007, so there's a 14 year old kid somewhere in America named Yujinaka Amber.